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  • Gorshkov - reassessed?

    Hmm.. finally the issue has been taken to Parliament in a strong manner. Sometimes, the commies do come handy! the CAG report has indicated that Gorshkov is more expansive than a brand new carrier; I hope the political pressure on the government keeps up, bloody politicians, they will buy themselves state of the art airplanes and helicopters to fly around in, but pass second hand stuff to the armed forces.

    Govt faces heat for buying 'junk' Gorshkov

    NEW DELHI: With the Comptroller and Auditor General punching gaping holes into the Gorshkov contract, the Opposition on Monday accused the
    government of buying the ‘‘junk’’ of an aircraft carrier at an exorbitantly high price.

    As reported earlier by TOI, India is likely to shell out $2 billion more to Russia, in addition to the initial $974 million agreed to in the January 2004 contract for the carrier’s refit, for getting Gorshkov by end-2012, almost five years behind schedule.

    Raising the issue during zero hour in the Lok Sabha, SP leader Mulayam Singh Yadav and CPM’s Basudeb Acharya demanded a statement from defence minister A K Antony about the wisdom of purchasing the carrier.

    “Why are we buying this junk? For half that price, you can build a new carrier,” said Yadav, himself a former defence minister. Citing the CAG report, he pointed out that only 20 years of the carrier’s life were actually left.
    Acharya, in turn, said that from an initially agreed price of $974 million the carrier’s refit price had been revised to $1.2 billion.

    Russia, incidentally, has further hiked the total refit cost to $2.9 billion after the CAG report was finalized.
    Govt faces heat for buying 'junk' Gorshkov - India - NEWS - The Times of India
    Re-look at Gorshkov deal, thanks to CAG report

    Having already paid up $602 million (Rs 3,010 crore) for a second-hand, 22-year-old Russian aircraft carrier, the government is now saying the deal is yet to be sealed with Russia, which is unlikely to return any money.

    “No final decision has been taken (on Admiral Gorshkov),” Defence Minister AK Antony told the Rajya Sabha on Wednesday. The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG), country’s top auditor, has criticised the government for buying a used carrier which costs 60 per cent more than a new one and will have a 20-year shorter life span.

    When the NDA government was in power, India had contracted to buy the 45,000-tonne Gorshkov in January 2004 for $1.5 billion (Rs 7,500 crore, at current exchange rate), including $974 million (Rs 4,870 crore) for refurbishing the carrier.

    The navy was at that time looking for a carrier as its only aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, was due to retire in 2007 and the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier was unlikely to be inducted before 2012.

    The contours of the deal, however, have changed drastically over the last five years. The Russians now want $2.9 billion (Rs 14,500 crore) for the warship, while the defence ministry is bargaining for $2.2 billion (Rs 11,000 crore).

    The government admitted that the Russians were demanding an obscene sum, but said no other country was willing to sell an aircraft carrier to India five years ago.

    Seeking to allay fears that the navy would end up buying a lemon from Russia, Antony said the government would keep in mind the auditor’s criticism before endorsing renegotiated terms.

    “The Russians have demanded a substantially huge amount. We are still negotiating the deal. No final decision has been taken.”

    A re-negotiated contract will have to be approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security. As most components of the warship were Ukraine-made, Russia said it was unable to assess refurbishing cost, hence, the price revision, Antony said.

    The CAG found that the cost of sea trials had spiralled many times over. Pegged at $27 million (Rs 135 crore), India will now have to shell out a huge $550 million (Rs 2,750 crore) for the trials.

    The auditor said the 20-fold jump in price had created doubts about “the diligence exercised while estimating and negotiating costs”.

    Re-look at Gorshkov deal, thanks to CAG report- Hindustan Times
    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

  • #2
    Originally posted by Tronic View Post
    Hmm.. finally the issue has been taken to Parliament in a strong manner. Sometimes, the commies do come handy! the CAG report has indicated that Gorshkov is more expansive than a brand new carrier; I hope the political pressure on the government keeps up, bloody politicians, they will buy themselves state of the art airplanes and helicopters to fly around in, but pass second hand stuff to the armed forces.
    The Indian government needs to put every last contract, current and future, in front of the Russians.

    Inform them that they are all at stake unless the Russians make good on that heap of shit they're trying to con India with.

    Then walk out of the room.
    “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

    Comment


    • #3
      Whilst the Gorshkov may not be a great deal, I don't believe you can purchase an equipped aircraft-carrier for $2billion now-a-days. Even an austere Juan Carlos will cost about $500 million, and then you need to buy - and wait for - the F-35B's (or use re-cycled Harriers in their stead, a'la Royal Navy).

      Short of buying a second-hand CATOBAR combination - and I can only think of one vessel that fits the bill, FNS Charles de Gualle - India had best wait to see what it can factor-out of the indigenous carrier and MMRCA combination. A basic QEII/CVF currently retails at $4billion-a-pop...!

      Comment


      • #4
        I don't agree with what the CAG says about the pricing. The report says that the Gorshkov costs 60% more than any new carrier will. Which carrier costs $1.8 billion today? Even indias own carrier being constructed is going to cost more.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
          Then walk out of the room.
          We both know that will never happen. We have too much Russian equipment to blackmail then over this. If we walk out of the room, 3/4ths of the IAF and I don't know what percentage of the Army's equipment will be on the line. Not worth it over one aircraft carrier which IMO isn't priced too badly.
          We also have several deals int he pipe line (PAK FA etc.) which aren't worth losing over something like this.

          Simply put, walking out on the Russians isn't something we can, or want to do.

          Comment


          • #6
            A rock and a hard place.

            You all know if India doesn't pay the demanded price for this piece of crap, the Russians will turn around and sell it to the Chinese just for the difference owing. India needs to buy this carrier if only to deny it to the PRC.

            Though I suspect whoever buys it will have it sitting at docks more often than carrying out deployments.

            Comment


            • #7
              ""Seeking to allay fears that the navy would end up buying a lemon from Russia...""

              What, like the fears that they actually did? God knows what kind of shape her machinery spaces are in following the boiler explosion, the "repairs" in 94 when Russia had NO money and 8 years rotting away in some radiation tainted estuary...

              I think axeman is right though, India cant just tell Russia in which orifice they can jam their carrier and walk out of the room. It's an ugly and intertwined situation the Indian Gov't is involved in with the absolute masters of con artistry
              You know JJ, Him could do it....

              Comment


              • #8
                An over priced circus wagon. And just think what you could have got for that money. Hind sight my friends hind sight.;)
                Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  A rock and a hard place.

                  You all know if India doesn't pay the demanded price for this piece of crap, the Russians will turn around and sell it to the Chinese just for the difference owing. India needs to buy this carrier if only to deny it to the PRC.

                  Though I suspect whoever buys it will have it sitting at docks more often than carrying out deployments.
                  OOE Sir, Owing to the quality ship building Russia has these days I say let them sell it to the Chinese. We wont ever have to sink it, It will sink on its own.:));)
                  Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by FluffyThoughts View Post
                    Whilst the Gorshkov may not be a great deal, I don't believe you can purchase an equipped aircraft-carrier for $2billion now-a-days. Even an austere Juan Carlos will cost about $500 million, and then you need to buy - and wait for - the F-35B's (or use re-cycled Harriers in their stead, a'la Royal Navy).

                    Short of buying a second-hand CATOBAR combination - and I can only think of one vessel that fits the bill, FNS Charles de Gualle - India had best wait to see what it can factor-out of the indigenous carrier and MMRCA combination. A basic QEII/CVF currently retails at $4billion-a-pop...!
                    Originally posted by Yusuf View Post
                    I don't agree with what the CAG says about the pricing. The report says that the Gorshkov costs 60% more than any new carrier will. Which carrier costs $1.8 billion today? Even indias own carrier being constructed is going to cost more.
                    You guys are not calculating the life-cycle costs as well; do that and all of a sudden, it becomes a hell of a lot more expensive. The report indicates, this carrier will only be good for about 20 year, thats a lot less than a new carrier!
                    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Normal life expectancy (new) 35 years, refits and routine check-ups will prolong this.
                      Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                        The Indian government needs to put every last contract, current and future, in front of the Russians.

                        Inform them that they are all at stake unless the Russians make good on that heap of shit they're trying to con India with.

                        Then walk out of the room.
                        What about the INS Chakra then?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by FluffyThoughts View Post
                          Whilst the Gorshkov may not be a great deal, I don't believe you can purchase an equipped aircraft-carrier for $2billion now-a-days. Even an austere Juan Carlos will cost about $500 million, and then you need to buy - and wait for - the F-35B's (or use re-cycled Harriers in their stead, a'la Royal Navy).

                          Short of buying a second-hand CATOBAR combination - and I can only think of one vessel that fits the bill, FNS Charles de Gualle - India had best wait to see what it can factor-out of the indigenous carrier and MMRCA combination. A basic QEII/CVF currently retails at $4billion-a-pop...!
                          For sale USS Kitty Hawk ?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Kitty Hawk was never offered. The media went to town with it though.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Yusuf View Post
                              Kitty Hawk was never offered. The media went to town with it though.
                              *Kitty wouldnt be offered either, far too many concerns but she definately would have been more worth then this. (No offense to the IN).

                              *If I had pull or say in the matter, Kitty would have been the choice since she was fresh from service which means she was atleast in working order, not sitting around becoming a rusting hulk whose technology has been far surpassed by light years in naval thinking.
                              Last edited by Dreadnought; 03 Aug 09,, 13:43.
                              Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                              Comment

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