Littoral Combat Ships

[Monash]

You're not understanding. A single destroyer with a helo attachment (meaning every single one Western destroyer/frigate since the 1960s) can clear any sealane mine field.

Yes but that's a multi billion dollar warship being forced to do a job much smaller and cheaper vessels could handle. The US Navy doesn't have enough destroyers for their intended rolls as it stands let alone then being asked to peel of multiple hulls for mine clearing duties during the midst of a major naval conflict. In the scenario under discussion there will scores of potential ports and sea lanes that will likely need to be cleared and potentially hundreds in not thousands of mines (taking into consideration the potential for constant re-seeding operations by the Chinese).

[Officer of Engineers]

Yes but that's a multi billion dollar warship being forced to do a job much smaller and cheaper vessels could handle. The US Navy doesn't have enough destroyers for their intended rolls as it stands alone then being asked to peel of multiple hulls for mine clearing duties during the midst of a major naval conflict. In the scenario under discussion there will scores potential ports and sea lanes that will likely need to be cleared and potentially hundreds in not thousands of mines (taking into consideration the potential for constant re-seeding operations by the Chinese).

You're joking me! A multi ship mine laying operation rendered useless by a single ship!

[kato]

potentially hundreds in not thousands of mines (taking into consideration the potential for constant re-seeding operations by the Chinese).

I'd consider thousands a pretty low estimate.

You're joking me! A multi ship mine laying operation rendered useless by a single ship!

A few notes:

• Virtually no ship smaller than a LPD can actually deploy a MH-53E, especially when taking into account carrying and deploying the MK-105 sled (basically a mid-sized catamaran boat) and the Mk-104 buoy as well. The squadrons are land-based and only sparsely used from LHDs, and if so the sleds tend to be deployed from the well deck.
• It is very doubtful whether the Mk-104/Mk-105 combination (which is basically a 1973 design occasionally slightly updated and refurbished) is all that useful against modern naal mines with more complicated fuzing strategies developed since the mid-70s. China switched to combination acoustic/magnetic fuzes with complicated ship-counting functions and ultrasound-based remote de/-activation in the early 1980s, probably developed keeping in mind the US deployment of Mk-105 against North Vietnamese minefields in 1972/73.
• Employing Mk-104/105 by MH-53E is a fairly hazardous operation in itself, as the helicopter has to fly at near stall speed. The helicopters are fairly old and maintenance-heavy, with operating costs supposedly approaching those of an F/A-18 - and a planned out-of-service date of 2025.
• The whole minesweeping thing is not as fast as the helicopter usage would indicate. In operations in the Persian Gulf in 1990 deployed helicopters from these units basically cleared 150m-wide corridors through Iraqi minefields at a speed of about 2.5 km per flight hour.

[Monash]

Little side note to this subject . Australia is purchasing an new class of OPV named the Arafura class based on the German built Darussalam class hull. 1640 tons, 80 meters long and a range of 4000 nmi with a crew forty to sixty man crew and 21 days endurance and a flight deck capable of sustaining unmanned drones using containerized equipment and fuel. Initial armament is only a 25 mm self stabilizing cannon and a couple of .50 cals. but there is space to upgrade later.

The key point I found interesting though was that the LCS design developed to around a small number of specialized mission packages, particularity mine countermeasures and marine survey. As a result he ships will be replacing not just the current shorter range fleet of patrol boats we use for patrolling an exclusive maritime economic zones but also our one clearing and marine survey vessels via containerized systems like the mine countermeasure system developed by the Dutch. Currently though only 12 are on order. It will be interesting to see if we've learned any lessons from the LCS debacle. There's certainly no excuse for the RAN not learning those lessons.

[jlvfr]

Little side note to this subject . Australia is purchasing an new class of OPV named the Arafura class based on the German built Darussalam class hull. 1640 tons, 80 meters long and a range of 4000 nmi with a crew forty to sixty man crew and 21 days endurance and a flight deck capable of sustaining unmanned drones using containerized equipment and fuel. Initial armament is only a 25 mm self stabilizing cannon and a couple of .50 cals. but there is space to upgrade later.

The key point I found interesting though was that the LCS design developed to around a small number of specialized mission packages, particularity mine countermeasures and marine survey. As a result he ships will be replacing not just the current shorter range fleet of patrol boats we use for patrolling an exclusive maritime economic zones but also our one clearing and marine survey vessels via containerized systems like the mine countermeasure system developed by the Dutch. Currently though only 12 are on order. It will be interesting to see if we've learned any lessons from the LCS debacle. There's certainly no excuse for the RAN not learning those lessons.

Well, the Arafura has a top speed of 22knots, not the ridiculous "I'm a WWII MGB look at me go" 40 of the LCS, so that's a start. Crew size seems to be the same of the Independence, but on a much smaller hull, so another good point. And it doesn't seem to have been built to be a "jack of all trades and master of all" the USN seemed to want to do with the LCS...

[Monash]

Well, the Arafura has a top speed of 22knots, not the ridiculous "I'm a WWII MGB look at me go" 40 of the LCS, so that's a start. Crew size seems to be the same of the Independence, but on a much smaller hull, so another good point. And it doesn't seem to have been built to be a "jack of all trades and master of all" the USN seemed to want to do with the LCS...

No, they were designed to be what they are, OPVs! (Supposedly with a 'LCS like' mine clearance module as an 'optional extra' when needed.) Having posted that however a week or so later they changed the 'plan', radically . I'll post what details are currently available shortly.

[Monash]

So as promised following a major review the following has changed. First scratch the plan for the Arafura's! The number of hulls is being cut from 12 to just 6! No word as yet (at least as far as I can find) on whats happening with the proposed mine hunting component? Maybe sea mines aren't a 'thing' anymore? If so I hope the Chinese know. In addtion the new heavy frigate class is also being cut from 9 to 6.

With the money being saved and additional funding an entirely new class of smaller frigate will be purchased, 11 hulls in total. On top of that and with no further details provided re their specs (size tonnage weaponry etc) an entirely new class of 6 'crew-less' war ships is being proposed, apparently based on a program the Australian Navy has been working on in tandem with US. So probably another offshoot of the AUKUS deal. At least some if not all of the new hulls will be equipped with the Tomahawk replacement so the idea seems to be to increase the number of VLS tubes we have as much as humanly possible. The plan also includes replacements for our 3 current air warfare destroyers when they reach end of life. The net effect is more than a doubling of the number of war fighters we have from 11 to 26. We'll see what happens. Link below.

https://www.australiandefence.com.au...-surface-fleet

[Albany Rifles]

Glad the frigate option appears to be having a 5 inch option and not the 57mm.

[jlvfr]

... all that plus the nuke subs?...

[Monash]

... all that plus the nuke subs?...

Yep! And it all comes at the cost of the army which is unfortunate but probably unavoidable. Australia's defense strategy is now almost entirely focused on defeating threats at a distance i.e. before any opponent can position themselves to even threaten the coast let alone land significant forces. The DoD and Government seem to have accepted the reality that we have too long of a coastline and too small a population/budget to risk trying to stop a large well equipped hostile force once it has established a foothold. Triple the population and size of the economy? That might not be true but as it stands we simply can't afford to up-equip all three services to the point where they have the mass to defeat a large invasion force and its easier to get at least close to that point via boosting the lethality of the Air Force and Navy. Less manpower required I guess.

Hell there's not a lot of detail yet but even the army is apparently supposed to be boosting it's long range striking power by being equipped with batteries of mobile launch vehicles and radars for the new US long range tomahawk replacement at the expense of armor and guns. Apparently the thinking is layered, long range defense. A certain somebody would be foolish to try it but should they attempt to send a large military force south through the various choke points in the Indonesian archipelago assuming we actually end up getting all of that kit? We could inflict real damage just on our own. The only effective way to reach us then becomes a long detour around Indonesia and out into the pacific. And we know some people out there apparently. In any case if they come that way their New Zealand's problem!

[tbm3fan]

Yep! And it all comes at the cost of the army which is unfortunate but probably unavoidable. Australia's defense strategy is now almost entirely focused defeating threats at a distance i.e. before any opponent can position themselves to even threaten the coast let alone land significant forces. The DoD and Government seem too have accepted the reality that we have too long of a coastline and too small a population/budget to risk trying to stop a large well equipped hostile force once it has established a foothold. Triple the population and size of the economy? That might not be true but as it stands we cant afford to up-equip all three services to the point where they have the mass to defeat an invasion force and its easier to get at least close to that point via boosting the lethality of the Air Force and Navy. Less manpower on costs I guess.

Hell there's not a lot of detail yet even army is apparently supposed to be boosting it's long range striking power by being equipped with batteries of mobile launch vehicles and radars for the new US long range tomahawk replacement at the expense of armor and guns. Apparently the thinking is layered long range defense. A certain somebody would be foolish to try it but should they attempt to send a large military force south through the various choke points in the Indonesian archipelago assuming we actually end up getting all of that kit? We could could inflict real damage just on our own. The only effective way to reach us then becomes a long detour around Indonesia and out into the pacific. And we know some people out there apparently. In any case if they come that way their New Zealand's problem!

Makes complete sense to me about the Army. Population of 25.69 million and 3 million square miles vs California at 39.24 million and 155,812 square miles. At least I know where excess Californians could go.

[Monash]

Makes complete sense to me about the Army. Population of 25.69 million and 3 million square miles vs California at 39.24 million and 155,812 square miles. At least I know where excess Californians could go.

I think we're actually heading for 27 million quite soon (immigration rates are currently way up.)

[tbm3fan]

I think where actually heading for 27 million quite soon (immigration rates are currently way up.)

I can help you with that. There were 1,218,000 who voted for Trump in California. I could send them over to you and you will easily top 28 million with room to spare. Sound good? I do suggest you keep them away from Sydney and Melbourne. Stash them in the outback with the Roos. That way the Christian group can try to convert the Roos or the Roos can beat the crap out of them.

A win win. You increase your population, we can decrease ours and in the meantime I think the Roos can handle themselves...

[Monash]

I can help you with that. There were 1,218,000 who voted for Trump in California. I could send them over to you and you will easily top 28 million with room to spare. Sound good? I do suggest you keep them away from Sydney and Melbourne. Stash them in the outback with the Roos. That way the Christian group can try to convert the Roos or the Roos can beat the crap out of them.

A win win. You increase your population, we can decrease ours and in the meantime I think the Roos can handle themselves...

Thank you for that suggestion soooooo much.

Unfortunately to migrate to Australia you have to have (A) specific useful/needed skills and (B) be mentally competent and be in possession if at least average intelligence or there abouts.

So sadly and while I appreciate your 'generosity' I would probably suggest something like at least one million of your potential 'new Australians' wouldn't cut the mustard. Also Australia is full of 'foreigners' and if you believe what the average MAGA seems to post apparently foreigners just want to take their stuff! So there's no way they'd ever move here. I think Florida or Texas might beckon. Or perhaps a lot of them can move into your neighborhood! There's a thought.