Littoral Combat Ships

[desertswo]

Interesting to watch Sir, do you happen to know the time frame - first strike to last? It certainly proves that hulls built to military grade specifications are strong but at the same time she had been stripped down i.e. no fuel, av-gas, munitions or other flammable stores on-board and no machinery running (gas turbines, prop shafts, generators etc) or live cables. I can't imagine how 80,000 HP of gas turbines or for that matter the gears and shafts they are driving are going to react in confined spaces to to the concussive shock and blast wave generated by a large, modern anti-ship missile impact.

What "av-gas?" Never heard of shock mounts or Rexnord couplings? Fuel may well be the least flammable thing on board and it is rendered even more safe by the nature of the fuel oil storage and transfer systems in all of those hulls. They are sea water compensated; as fuel goes out, sea water comes in so the ship is ALWAYS in trim and on an even keel. Munitions are a problem but they are always a problem; which is why there are blowout patches and fixed flooding systems designed into the hull to minimize those effects. And again, give the ship a chance to defend itself. You might find they are pretty good at it.

[Tankersteve]

DesertSWO,

Thanks for that basic dump on what is involved with DC. As an aside, my dad did a short stint on the Constellation - was an EOD officer primarily on the Kilauea back in 71-72. I'll see him soon and ask him what role he had with DC.

Tankersteve

[desertswo]

DesertSWO,

Thanks for that basic dump on what is involved with DC. As an aside, my dad did a short stint on the Constellation - was an EOD officer primarily on the Kilauea back in 71-72. I'll see him soon and ask him what role he had with DC.

Tankersteve

Oh, he was the guy at the wardroom table whose eyes got big when they passed the word on the 1MC, "Un-expended Rockeye on the ball." ;)

[Tankersteve]

Ha, nice. That kinda goes with the other EOD slogan of 'if you see me running, try to catch up'.

Tankersteve

[JA Boomer]

DC is, by its very nature labor intensive. As a young Ensign I owned Repair Locker Number Two in Constellation. That covered the forward third of the ship, main deck and below (including the magazines containing those weapons, the existence we could neither confirm nor deny). I had 150 MEN assigned to me. There were eight repair lockers in all, each with the same or higher manning. So roughly 25% or more of a compliment of 5000 was dedicated to DC. For the gentlemen here who spent their service lives humping 90 pound rucks 20 miles in a day, I have the greatest respect; so let me put main engineering space fire fighting into a context that will make some sense to you. Fire and flushing main pressure is maintained anywhere between 90 and 160 PSI; so take that 90 pound ruck, and the M-4 you've been humping off of your backs and hold it at waist level and then swing it back and forth for five minutes (understanding that according to Mr. Newton, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, that 90 PSI is pushing you backwards, never mind the weight of the water in that 2 and 1/2 inch hose), keeping in mind that you are wearing a Nomex flame resistant suit, Scott Air Pack, and the ambient temperature in the space may be approaching 300 degrees and you aren't anywhere near the fire . . . yet. Leave the danger aspect out of it, it's just plain exhausting work, and it requires multiple teams in order to do it, because you probably won't get anywhere near five minutes out of that Number One nozzle man.

Now, someone will try to tell you that there is an automatic this or that to handle all of that, to which I would reply that there is a pony somewhere in this room, so you'd better keep shoveling. And 25% of 65? 16; let me know how that works out for you.

How is DC organized desertswo? I take it it's a 'secondary' task for lack of a better term, in that everyone has regular jobs that go out the window when DC is called for?

[desertswo]

How is DC organized desertswo? I take it it's a 'secondary' task for lack of a better term, in that everyone has regular jobs that go out the window when DC is called for?

A repair locker is a battle station; so if one is assigned to one, that's where you go during GQ. So yes, one has a regular job or watch station, but that goes to the back burner when the bullets start flying.

[DonBelt]

There is also a rating- damage controlman (or DC) that has specific training in damage control, firefighting, hull repair, crbne defense and related subjects. They lead repair lockers and firefighting teams. When I was in during the 80's, HT's would fill this role with other engineering rates. Other rates although not assigned to repair lockers for GQ would still have training in damage control and firefighting. Every work center also had a damage control petty officer (dcpo) whose job it was to check battle lanterns, maintain watertight fittings, gaskets, valves and other fittings in our respective spaces. Damage control isn't just the reaction to a damaging event, but also the maintenance of damage mitigating equipment and fixtures, the maintenance of material conditions of readiness, being secure for sea and just knowing your ship.

[SlaterDoc]

There is also a rating- damage controlman (or DC) that has specific training in damage control, firefighting, hull repair, crbne defense and related subjects. They lead repair lockers and firefighting teams. When I was in during the 80's, HT's would fill this role with other engineering rates. Other rates although not assigned to repair lockers for GQ would still have training in damage control and firefighting. Every work center also had a damage control petty officer (dcpo) whose job it was to check battle lanterns, maintain watertight fittings, gaskets, valves and other fittings in our respective spaces. Damage control isn't just the reaction to a damaging event, but also the maintenance of damage mitigating equipment and fixtures, the maintenance of material conditions of readiness, being secure for sea and just knowing your ship.

Spoken like a Chief!
Bet the Cap'n would have had you on his Frigate!

[desertswo]

There is also a rating- damage controlman (or DC) that has specific training in damage control, firefighting, hull repair, crbne defense and related subjects. They lead repair lockers and firefighting teams. When I was in during the 80's, HT's would fill this role with other engineering rates. Other rates although not assigned to repair lockers for GQ would still have training in damage control and firefighting. Every work center also had a damage control petty officer (dcpo) whose job it was to check battle lanterns, maintain watertight fittings, gaskets, valves and other fittings in our respective spaces. Damage control isn't just the reaction to a damaging event, but also the maintenance of damage mitigating equipment and fixtures, the maintenance of material conditions of readiness, being secure for sea and just knowing your ship.

Spoken like a Chief!
Bet the Cap'n would have had you on his Frigate!

Excellent points, and the comment sort of goes to my earlier comment about how DC is like surfing. It's not just a "job," or "hobby," but a way of life. The American Blue Jacket is so well inculcated with the DC paradigm that he or she reacts instinctively, and with the internalized commitment to not "give up the ship." We simply do not know how to do that.

[Monash]

What "av-gas?"

Sorry I was referring to the fuel used by that class of warship's helicopter units. I was under the impression that they used standard aviation fuel which I believe is more volatile than marine diesel.

Never heard of shock mounts or Rexnord couplings?

Nope but I am happy to learn, now that I know what to look for I will do some research. Thanks. :)

Fuel may well be the least flammable thing on board and it is rendered even more safe by the nature of the fuel oil storage and transfer systems in all of those hulls. They are sea water compensated; as fuel goes out, sea water comes in so the ship is ALWAYS in trim and on an even keel.

I am aware that the fuel in question is not particularly volatile in it's normal state but I was thinking more in terms of droplets/vapor dispersed into confined spaces or compartments by an explosion.

Munitions are a problem but they are always a problem; which is why there are blowout patches and fixed flooding systems designed into the hull to minimize those effects. And again, give the ship a chance to defend itself. You might find they are pretty good at it.

Again thanks I will look up these technical details. BTW I do realize the idea is NOT to get hit in the first place and that the US navy, like all modern navies works very hard to achieve just this but my original question arose because obviously it would be foolish in the extreme to assume it was never going to happen.

If I may ask after the viewing the the video how likely would it be that the ship in question would still be combat capable after taking one of the various hits shown? Obviously you don't get to see exactly what damage was done/what systems would have been knocked out by any of the hits.

Cheers

[Dazed]

[QUOTE=Monash;993996]Sorry I was referring to the fuel used by that class of warship's helicopter units. I was under the impression that they used standard aviation fuel which I believe is more volatile than marine diesel.
The helicopters burn jet fuel JP-5? for the Navy. AVgas was and is used in piston aircraft. A-1, S-2 etc. but they are long gone. In a pinch you can use Jet A in a diesel

[desertswo]

Sorry I was referring to the fuel used by that class of warship's helicopter units. I was under the impression that they used standard aviation fuel which I believe is more volatile than marine diesel.

Really not much difference between JP-5 (NATO F-44) and DFM (NATO F-76). At the end of the day Kerosene is Kerosene. The beauty of a gas turbine is that it will burn mule piss if that's all you have, and it will burn both JP-5 and DFM with equal alacrity, whether it's the GE LM2500s that drive the ship, or the GE T700s that drive the MH-60 Seahawk. You won't find it in the NATOPS manual, but as an experienced fleet engineer and CO, I wouldn't hesitate to use DFM in the helo if the ship was in extremis and that's all we had. BTW, I used to burn JP-5 in my boilers just because.

Actual "AVGAS" is a very different thing. It's high test aviation gasoline that is volatile in the extreme. It went away when the Navy decommissioned the A-1 Skyraider and the C-1 Trader; the last "piston poppers" in the fleet.

I am aware that the fuel in question is not particularly volatile in it's normal state but I was thinking more in terms of droplets/vapor dispersed into confined spaces or compartments by an explosion.

Not much of an issue in the storage tanks because it is in direct contact with the sea water on which it sits. In regard to the service tanks and the fuel lines which are all in the engine rooms where we have fixed flooding AFFF and the water fog system (we used to have Halon 1301 systems but the Green arseholes fecked that up for us) that snuff that sort of thing out pretty quickly.

Again thanks I will look up these technical details. BTW I do realize the idea is NOT to get hit in the first place and that the US navy, like all modern navies works very hard to achieve just this but my original question arose because obviously it would be foolish in the extreme to assume it was never going to happen.

I believe in one of my earlier comments that I said we assume we are going to take a hit, and train accordingly.

If I may ask after the viewing the the video how likely would it be that the ship in question would still be combat capable after taking one of the various hits shown? Obviously you don't get to see exactly what damage was done/what systems would have been knocked out by any of the hits.

Cheers

Like anything else in life, it just depends. One thing to keep in mind is that the ABs are much stouter than the Spruance-class with all steel construction. They are literally the "tough too crack."

[TopHatter]

US Navy Plans to Double LCS Fleet Size to Eight Ships by February

The U.S. Navy is preparing to accept delivery of four more of its shallow-water Littoral Combat Ships between now and February of next year, effectively doubling its current fleet size of the ships and paving the way for more deployments.

On Tuesday, the sea service formally accepted delivery of the USS Jackson (LCS 6) during a ceremony at the Austal USA shipyard in Mobile, Alabama.
Next, it to receive the the USS Milwaukee (LCS 5) in October of this year and the USS Montgomery (LCS 8) in December of this year, Naval Sea Systems Command spokesman Chris Johnson explained.
Then, the Navy expects to accept delivery of the USS Detroit (LCS 7) in February of next year, he added.

"By early next year, the Navy will be operating eight littoral combat ships and we'll be accepting four more by the end of 2016," Johnson told Military.com. “The Navy will continue to accept ships at that rate for the next several years making the LCS class the second largest surface combatant class in the fleet and the key to our ability to operate in shallow, coastal waterways around the world."

Navy officials expressed enthusiasm about Tuesday’s arrival of the USS Jackson, which will soon bring the total operational number of LCS ships up to five.
"We are pleased to receive the future USS Jackson into the LCS class," Capt. Warren Buller, commander of Littoral Combat Ship Squadron One, said in a written statement. "Jackson will operate out of Mayport, Florida, while conducting full ship shock trials, prior to joining her sister littoral combat ships in their homeport of San Diego in late 2016."

Following commissioning and shock trials, Jackson will be based in San Diego with her sister ships USS Freedom (LCS 1), USS Independence (LCS 2), USS Fort Worth (LCS 3) and the USS Coronado (LCS 4).
"Today marks a significant milestone in the life of the future USS Jackson, an exceptional ship which will conduct anti-submarine, surface and mine countermeasure operations around the globe with ever increasing mission package capability," LCS program manager Capt. Tom Anderson, said in a statement. "It also marks a significant milestone for the LCS program, as the first of 20 LCS block buy ships delivers to the Navy. It is exciting to see these capable, yet affordable, ships transitioning from serial production to serial delivery."

The arrival of four new vessels comes at a time when the service is making progress with improvements to the platform following the initial LCS deployments.
The USS Freedom deployed in the Pacific theater in 2013. The ship recently entered a three-to-four-month dry dock maintenance period wherein it will receive a series of wide-ranging upgrades and repairs. Some of the activities will include new servers, computer networks and updated software, along with improved equipment such as a seawater cooling system, air compressor and communications antenna, among other items, Capt. Scott Pratt, Program Manager for Fleet Introduction and Sustainment, LCS, told Military.com in an interview earlier this summer.

“There are 34 alterations being done on the ship as part of this maintenance availability. These changes are comprised of things that will increase reliability," he said at the time.
The USS Freedom is also getting back-fitted with the same medium pressure air compressor that is now on the USS Fort Worth, currently deployed in the Pacific theater. The compressors are used to start the diesel engines and they also provide air throughout the ship, service officials said.

During its initial deployment in 2013 to Singapore and areas in the South China Sea, the USS Freedom experienced a wide range of technical and reliability problems that resulted in a series of short and long-term fixes. For instance, the ship experienced a temporary power outage while on route to Guam. It also experienced issues with a corroded cable, a faulty air compressor and so-called ship service diesel generators, officials said.
Now, along with improvements to the ship’s air compressor, other adjustments during the maintenance period for the USS Freedom include work on the sea water cooling system and communications antenna. Some of the improvements were put in place for construction and development of LCS 3, LCS 5 and others.

The littoral combat ship was designed as a multi-mission shallow water platform able reach areas and port inaccessible to larger-draft ships.
The platform has been the focus of some criticism and controversy. Lawmakers, analysts and members of the Navy have said the ships are not survivable enough in a fast-evolving world of surface warfare threats. Proponents have maintained that the LCS class is designed to defeat threats in coastal waters, where increasingly capable submarines, mines, and swarming small craft operate.

Nevertheless, the concerns have led the Pentagon and the Navy to develop a new LCS variant, now called a Frigate, designed to capitalize upon the benefits of the LCS platform while making it more lethal and survivable. The particular composition of technologies and weapons for these new ships is now in the process of taking shape. Link

[surfgun]

Here is a weapon that would likely go to sea with LCS:


The Navy brought its Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System (APKWS) rocket guidance system to the Northeast this week, with the Dusty Dogs of Helicopter Sea Combat Squadron (HSC) 7 becoming the first in the region to test out the weapon.

HSC-7 tested the guided rocket system in an Aug. 17 live-fire drill for the first time, after West Coast units have already deployed with APKWS but the East Coast units had only been able to simulate the new tactics.

Lt. Erik Gustafson, tactics officer at HSC-7, told USNI News on Thursday that APKWS “fills in a very important part of the lethality gap in our weapons footprint,” hitting a sweet spot between the AGM-114 Hellfire missile and unguided 20mm cannons and 2.75-inch rockets.

APKWS is a laser guidance section that screws into the middle of 2.75-inch rocket, such as the Hydra rocket the Navy uses. The BAE Systems-built product went into full-rate production in 2012 and is now going through exercises and demonstrations in the U.S. Army and several international militaries. The idea behind the system is to provided a guided munition capability while leveraging what is already in militaries’ inventories and without requiring modifications to the aircraft.

With the Hellfire, the squadron gets a “big boom and pretty significant range and a high cost per round. So we have excellent standoff with that weapon, but it comes at a pretty significant price. And for our target set, it’s relatively significant overkill, to put it lightly,” Gustafson said of the primary ship defense mission.
“Ship defense is one of our major roles, so unguided weapons are an excellent reactive capability, but we talk about them bringing you into the knife fight – very close proximity, but very easy to turn on the bad guy and kill them quickly. So APK sits right in the middle of those two windows – they’re a guided weapon, so in some sense it’s a little bit more difficult to employ, but a higher reliability and a higher ratio of kills per round expended.”

Prior to Monday, the HSC-7 crew had only read about the tactics employed by the West Coast squadrons, so actually firing the guided rockets downrange was a great experience for the crew, Gustafson said. The rocket pods actually showed up before the training aids, he said, so the crew went out to see what they could do without having practiced in the simulator – and they hit 13 of 15 moving and static targets.

“All the stuff that we’ve done so far has been completely notional and just kind of imagining it. We’ve flown the profiles … but we’ve never actually seen the stuff on the screen and never actually had the pilot load it before. So this was that missing link, where we get to interface with the software and we actually get to send rounds downrange,” Gustafson said.

He noted that the APKWS capability does not replace any weapons or eliminate any previously used tactics, but rather augments what the MH-60S squadrons were already doing.

“We can take multiple shots with APKWS rounds as we proceed into the target, and then we can clean up with probably our 20mm cannon,” Gustafson explained.
“We can mix and match a variety of different weapons, but I think the common configuration you’ll see is a port-mounded 20mm cannon and a starboard-mounted LAU-61G/A, which is the new rocket pod we use to fire the APKWS rounds. So that allows us a good combination of mid-range strike and then close in to complete the engagement with 20mm. The major change in tactics is we now have the ability to service targets at any range very reliably.”

The Hellfire missile typically is effective up to 8,000 meters, he said, but is expensive. Unguided weapons are only effective up to 1,500 meters or less. APKWS gives pilots reliable accuracy between 2,000 and 5,000 meters.

“In general [firing a guided weapon] requires a bit more coordination to employ, but the tradeoff is we have a higher reliability and a greater standoff range,” he said.

Going forward, HSC-7 will get its ordnance personnel certified and put the rest of the squadron through initial training with a Naval Air Forces training team. Monday’s live-fire exercise marked the start of its work-up cycle in preparation for a deployment to the Middle East with the Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69) Carrier Strike Group. In addition to training for the deployment, Gustafson said his squadron would work with HSC 5, 9 and eventually 11 to help them adapt the new weapon system.

http://news.usni.org/2015/08/21/norf...uidance-system

[surfgun]

Posted: August 24, 2015 4:49 PM

MH-60S Helicopter, Radar-Equipped Fire Scout to Deploy on Westpac LCS in 2016

By RICHARD R. BURGESS, Managing Editor

ARLINGTON, Va. — The Navy plans to deploy an MH-60S version of the Seahawk helicopter on a littoral combat ship deploying to the Western Pacific in 2016.

Helicopter Sea Combat Squadron 23 (HSC-23), based at Naval Air Station North Island, Calif., will deploy next year with an MH-60S along with an MQ-8B Fire Scout unmanned aerial vehicle on USS Coronado, said CAPT Ben Reynolds, deputy commander of Helicopter Sea Combat Wing, U.S. Pacific Fleet, at North Island.

So far, all LCS deployments to Singapore have been provided by Helicopter Maritime Strike Squadron 35, which currently provides an MH-60R and an MQ-8B to USS Fort Worth.

The MH-60S is a module of the LCS surface warfare and mine countermeasures mission packages. The MH-60R is optimized for the antisubmarine warfare mission package, but can also operate, as it has so far, with her surface warfare mission package.

The MQ-8B deploying with the HSC-23 detachment will be the first with a Telephonics ZPY-4 surface search radar.

HSC-21, also based at North Island, also will deploy the MH-60S and the Fire Scout in the future. The larger MQ-8C version of the Fire Scout, now in testing, is scheduled to be available for deployment in 2017.
http://www.seapowermagazine.org/stor...824-mh60s.html