Rafale Wins MMRCA Bid

[kuku]

'Please sir, i want some more'
More!!!! sorry no all our orphan money went to this aid we give to India for securing weapon deals

[xinhui]

guys, back to topic please.

[subba]

The funds will be run on a strict commercial basis by professional fund managers demonstrating that investment in climate projects in developing countries offers real opportunities for investors.

DFID - Private investment to help tackle climate change

The site also states that none of the DFID money has been abused. Some programs seems have been beneficial to the poor. It also acknowledges the statements being played up in the media about the FMs remarks were in a parliamentary debate. Folks here underestimate the local including the GOI efforts in alleviating poverty.

[S2]

subba Reply

"...the Defense budget is some 300 plus times the aid figure."

Are you sure?

Irrelevant in any case. India had to make a decision. Five excellent airframes were destined to come out losers. Brits lose. Dassault wins. India surely wins. They'd have won in anycase with virtually any of the competing aircraft. All seemingly excellent.

India now has a platform to move into the next level of avionics. We'll see if it's worthy. More importantly, we've yet to see whether the Indian aerospace industry can begin responding organically with the sophistication necessary to compete at this advanced combat level.

That's yet to come.

[Deltacamelately]

"...the Defense budget is some 300 plus times the aid figure."

Are you sure?

Irrelevant in any case. India had to make a decision. Five excellent airframes were destined to come out losers. Brits lose. Dassault wins. India surely wins. They'd have won in anycase with virtually any of the competing aircraft. All seemingly excellent.

India now has a platform to move into the next level of avionics. We'll see if it's worthy. More importantly, we've yet to see whether the Indian aerospace industry can begin responding organically with the sophistication necessary to compete at this advanced combat level.

That's yet to come.

Steve,

I think integration of the Rafale into the Indian Air Force wouldn't pose as much of a challenge as some of us think. Most of the aviation men I have talked to, are confident that their existing comfort level with the other French aircrafts and the associated technologies will assist in seamless integration of this craft with most of the existing systems.

I still think that the choice to go French, was more to do with technology sharing and more political freedom, which boosts the planners, domestic aviation commitments as well as perceived independence of action during future crisis or war. Is the Rafale a better fighting platform than the rest 5 contenders? Well, I don't know, neither do the others I talked to.

[Doktor]

DCL,

Is there any chance the French to cross you the way they did it to the Argies?

[S2]

DCL Reply

Major,

"...I still think that the choice to go French, was more to do with technology sharing and more political freedom, which boosts the planners, domestic aviation commitments as well as perceived independence of action during future crisis or war..."

Fully agree. With all else comparable, those would be critical issues separating contenders.

[jlvfr]

Anyone else thinks the Rafale's recent performance in Libia helped chinch this?

[Firestorm]

It was a purely financial decision.

Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review

Excerpts:

It was the "substantially higher cost" of acquiring and operating the Eurofighter Typhoon that led to its ejection from the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to supply 126 fighters to IAF.
The French Rafale jet, the eventual winner, beat the Typhoon hollow both in terms of life cycle costs and direct acquisition costs.
The entire MMRCA project cost would have gone up by around Rs 25,000 crore (about $5 billion) if Typhoon had been selected over Rafale,

..MoD (Ministry of Defence) has ruled out the possibility of "any comeback" by Typhoon despite carping by the four nations (UK, Germany, Spain and Italy) backing it, and will begin "exclusive and extensive negotiations" with Rafale-manufacturer Dassault Aviation next week

The fact is that the cost deferential between Typhoon and Rafale was very high... it would cost India around 22% to 25% more if the former had been selected. No government can agree to so much extra

Both Rafale and Typhoon had been found "compliant" on all the 643-660 technical parameters laid down to meet specific operational requirements of India, after gruelling field trials by IAF test pilots spread over two years.

For one, the "life cycle cost" of operating the Typhoon over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying, was found to be "higher" than Rafale after extensive calculations of flight costs, spares, maintenance and the like. "The life cycle costs were actually the tool to determine who was L-1 (lowest bidder),

Text in blue is my addition.

[Firestorm]

This article talks about how the aircraft were evaluated (amongst many other things), although it contains only a few details about the tech evals.
The Rafale's long flight to India

Excerpts:

In the second half of 2008, IAF conducted a technical evaluation to see whether the bids conformed to the RfP. What should have been an innocuous process turned dramatic when Dassault’s bid was reportedly rejected as incomplete. While this was quickly resolved by diplomatic intervention, reportedly by President Sarkozy himself, other companies now say the Rafale was done a favour by being allowed back into the contest.

Conducted by the Directorate of Air Staff Requirements, and overseen by the quiet and unflappable Air Commodore (now Air Vice-Marshal) R K Dhir, each of the six contenders was flight-tested by IAF pilots on 660 separate performance aspects. For example, the RfP demanded that the fighter’s engine should be replaced within one hour. The maintenance teams actually made each contender do that. If IAF demanded a “sustained turn rate” (the quickness with which a fighter can turn around in the air) of 24 degrees per second, each fighter was physically put through this manoeuvre to establish that it met this requirement. (Incidentally, both the US fighters failed to meet IAF’s “sustained turn rate” requirements)

Air Marshal Barbora, who oversaw the flight evaluation process as IAF’s vice-chief, says that six teams of pilots, flight engineers and maintenance staff were mustered — one for each aircraft. Each pilot began by learning to fly the fighter he would evaluate, while the flight engineers and maintenance staff learned the technical ropes. The IAF pilots physically flew each of the contending fighters, albeit with a “home” pilot in the second seat.

[Double Edge]

It was a purely financial decision.

Such deals are never purely financial. This deal is just too damn important to be down to that. This is just the govts spin.

I don't mind paying more if it means a reliable supply when it counts.

In other words, trust.

[Deltacamelately]

DCL,

Is there any chance the French to cross you the way they did it to the Argies?

Doktor,

The way I see it, the Argies messed up with the British, a rated european power. I don't think that they would have the stomach to piss off the bulk of the western powers, just to please the Argies. Though this might not exactly be a valid comparison, but at the same time, I really don't see India going up against any of the major western powers, warranting a similar French action.

On a side note, I could imagine the Indian decission makers factoring all these probables, along with putting checks and boundaries against any such embargoes in times of war.

[Officer of Engineers]

Seriously, I cannot wrap my head around this. Why waste monies on the MMRCA when the PAK-FA is around the corner? India got the SU-27 which is at least on par with anything the Chinese and the Pakistanis got. Except for the Chinese who got the J-20, ie a PAK-FA class, in development, sticking with the SU-27/31 will not reduce Indian capabilities against either China or Pakistan.

[payeng]

Seriously, I cannot wrap my head around this. Why waste monies on the MMRCA when the PAK-FA is around the corner? India got the SU-27 which is at least on par with anything the Chinese and the Pakistanis got. Except for the Chinese who got the J-20, ie a PAK-FA class, in development, sticking with the SU-27/31 will not reduce Indian capabilities against either China or Pakistan.

I think it is for the development of domestic aerospace industries as skilled labour and infrastructure, moreover maybe some technological know how, DRDO is a R&D department, manufacturing should be entrusted to some kind of organisation in the long run, India's aerospace industries is limited mostly to government controlled organisations with very limited contribution from the private sector. It may not be that private sectors are not interested but for the lack of such orders might be the cause of lack of skilled labour in this industries, the same acquired infrastructure by this order can be used further for domestic productions. The 50 percent off set clause explains something about it.

My two cents.

[Zinja]

Seriously, I cannot wrap my head around this. Why waste monies on the MMRCA when the PAK-FA is around the corner? India got the SU-27 which is at least on par with anything the Chinese and the Pakistanis got. Except for the Chinese who got the J-20, ie a PAK-FA class, in development, sticking with the SU-27/31 will not reduce Indian capabilities against either China or Pakistan.

I think its down to numbers Col. They want something that is modern and they can field in satisfactory numbers. I think the Chinese superior numbers plays a lot into their psyche. It interesting to note that price was the final arbiter between the Rafale and the Typhoon.