Rafale Wins MMRCA Bid

[Officer of Engineers]

Considering Indian MiG-21's have been able to take down USAF F-15's with support from jammers and datalinks in DACT, the Tejas should be even more equipped for modern war.

I strongly discourage anyone thinking DACT represents real world combat. It is meant to solve technical and tactical problems; not representation of a real strike package.

I can imagine Rafale easily sneaking up behind F-16's and J-10's and taking them down with MICA IR missiles, with almost no warning. Very difficult to prepare for.

In the Chinese case, you're doing exactly what they want. For every MICA, IR missile, a bomb is missing from the rack. For every RAFAEL tangling with the CAP is one less plane to bomb the lead column.

Point taken on the problem with having monopoly PSUs in charge. Thats why we should stop the endless cycle and privatise them.
However I dont really know much about artillery to comment on the griffin thing. My understanding from earlier threads was that nothing really can replace accurate dense artillery support both for the speed of response and also cost of use.
Wiki says 'In 70 months of production from 2008 to early February 2014, Raytheon delivered 2,000 Griffin missiles'. I dont think it can be a replacement for thousands of rounds of artillery.

The GRIFFINs will take care of those targets that need real precision. Everything else can be handled by the current crop of tubes.

[anil]

Every aircraft has its own role. There is something called a budget and a strategy.

[Duellist]

[QUOTE=OOE2_test;992301]I strongly discourage anyone thinking DACT represents real world combat. It is meant to solve technical and tactical problems; not representation of a real strike package.

In the Chinese case, you're doing exactly what they want. For every MICA, IR missile, a bomb is missing from the rack. For every RAFAEL tangling with the CAP is one less plane to bomb the lead column.

DACT is still important for interoperability and tactical refinement. My point was that the tactics developed for the MiGs can be transferred to the more advanced Tejas.

In the Chinese case, yes but that's also less PLAAF aircraft to bomb your strike columns, at the least. The role of bombing their lead columns can go to the light aircraft such as Tejas and Mig-27/Jaguar. Even so , it would be an interesting test of Rafale's much advertised ''omnirole'' ability to switch modes from air superiority to CAS and interdiction. On paper there's no reason it can't handle firing both LGB's and MICA missiles within minutes of each other.

[anil]

An example

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Yv3-Nw0dZc...s1600/1111.jpg

[anil]

[Officer of Engineers]

DACT is still important for interoperability and tactical refinement. My point was that the tactics developed for the MiGs can be transferred to the more advanced Tejas.

I should hope the hell not. You're placing the limitations of the MiG-21s onto the TEJAs. Besides, what you can do with MiG-21s, so can they. Besides, thier MiG-21s have the primary role as missile magnets, shields for their more capable aircrafts.

In the Chinese case, yes but that's also less PLAAF aircraft to bomb your strike columns, at the least.

They don't care. That's what their SSM batteries are for. At last count, 2000 such missiles are in their inventiory. And no Indian aircrafts are going to stop those.

The role of bombing their lead columns can go to the light aircraft such as Tejas and Mig-27/Jaguar.

That is if you can get through their screens first. Do recall what their MiG-21 primary role is.

Even so , it would be an interesting test of Rafale's much advertised ''omnirole'' ability to switch modes from air superiority to CAS and interdiction. On paper there's no reason it can't handle firing both LGB's and MICA missiles within minutes of each other.

Bingo fuel and bombs.

[Duellist]

Sending young pilots up there to die like that may have been viable in the days of the Korean War, but I doubt the use of men as cannon fodder in MiG-21 screens would be politically palatable to the CCP today, in a changed China against a country that's not even the main enemy ( Japan).

What applies to China also holds true for India to a lesser extent with Brahmos cruise missiles and Prithvi SRBM's all capable of being fired en mass into Tibet. Also the Rafale was designed from the ground up to penetrate numerically superior and highly integrated Soviet defences, similar to what the Chinese field today, for a nuclear strike role. It would be interesting to see whether the Chinese would even see a Rafale strike pack coming- not that I think it will happen because Sino-Indian confrontations will happen by proxy.

[Officer of Engineers]

Sending young pilots up there to die like that may have been viable in the days of the Korean War, but I doubt the use of men as cannon fodder in MiG-21 screens would be politically palatable to the CCP today, in a changed China against a country that's not even the main enemy ( Japan).

You plan against what they're capable of, not how cowardly they are.

What applies to China also holds true for India to a lesser extent with Brahmos cruise missiles and Prithvi SRBM's all capable of being fired en mass into Tibet.

Again, 2000 missiles in the Chinese inventory. How many does India have?

Also the Rafale was designed from the ground up to penetrate numerically superior and highly integrated Soviet defences, similar to what the Chinese field today, for a nuclear strike role.

Missile magnets was more true back then. A RAFALE strike package would not have stood any chance of any penetration. The numbers ain't there.

It would be interesting to see whether the Chinese would even see a Rafale strike pack coming- not that I think it will happen because Sino-Indian confrontations will happen by proxy.

Doesn't mean you can take your eyes off the Chinese.

[Duellist]

You plan against what they're capable of, not how cowardly they are.

Again, 2000 missiles in the Chinese inventory. How many does India have?

Missile magnets was more true back then. A RAFALE strike package would not have stood any chance of any penetration. The numbers ain't there.

Doesn't mean you can take your eyes off the Chinese.

1,000 Brahmos to be produced for domestic use by the end of the decade, with more cheap Nirbhay TLAM equivalents on the way. Evens out the numbers a little bit- and the cheap mass production Chinese SRBM's are less equipped to beat evolving Indian BMD. I've always believed that intentions and not capabilities matter, personally. Political calculation, not cowardice, would be a more appropriate term. Will the Chinese populace accept the loss of their sons on a mere border adventure?

On the Rafale, considering French strategic autonomy from NATO I doubt they would put their faith in a strike force that couldn't beat Soviet SAM's. EW is a big leveller, and dense SAM networks have been beaten before by the Israelis and the Americans. The French seem to think the bird can contend against 5th generation aircraft and defences, so it's their own capabilities and doctrine at stake as well.

[Officer of Engineers]

1,000 Brahmos to be produced for domestic use by the end of the decade, with more cheap Nirbhay TLAM equivalents on the way.

What makes you think the Chinese are sitting still? They were the pioneers at using conventional missiles to replace nukes.

Evens out the numbers a little bit- and the cheap mass production Chinese SRBM's are less equipped to beat evolving Indian BMD.

They're more advanced than anything the Indians have produced without Russian help and even then, the sheer numbers would overwhelm Indian BMD, not to mention simple counter measures (chaff).

I've always believed that intentions and not capabilities matter, personally. Political calculation, not cowardice, would be a more appropriate term. Will the Chinese populace accept the loss of their sons on a mere border adventure?

Tianamen Square should tell you that.

On the Rafale, considering French strategic autonomy from NATO I doubt they would put their faith in a strike force that couldn't beat Soviet SAM's. EW is a big leveller, and dense SAM networks have been beaten before by the Israelis and the Americans. The French seem to think the bird can contend against 5th generation aircraft and defences, so it's their own capabilities and doctrine at stake as well.

You said Cold War. The sheer number of planes the Soviets were prepared to throw up means that AWACS have to goto ground until the skies could be clear.

[Duellist]

They're more advanced than anything the Indians have produced without Russian help and even then, the sheer numbers would overwhelm Indian BMD, not to mention simple counter measures (chaff).


You said Cold War. The sheer number of planes the Soviets were prepared to throw up means that AWACS have to goto ground until the skies could be clear.

The origin of the missiles is irrelevant, and ABM production can be expanded. Strikes by cruise missiles and PGM's can enable the Indians to eliminate Chinese TELARS. Combine with natural failure rates and the missiles are much less of a threat.

The Chinese are not the Soviets, will not be at that level for a while. Indian capabilities with the MKI+ Rafale will compare well with Britain and France, numerically and technically, and the deployment of AWACS and EW planes by the IAF will go a long way toward offsetting China's advantage. The Rafale could bypass Chinese MiG layers and mission kill or even takedown Chinese AWACS and Sukhois/J-11. The bird is built to contend with (and beat) late model Flankers and contains many systems similar to the JSF. Even 2 squadrons will be a big headache for the Chinese, and a big threat to the Pakistanis.

[Officer of Engineers]

The origin of the missiles is irrelevant, and ABM production can be expanded.

BMs are always cheaper than interceptors.

Strikes by cruise missiles and PGM's can enable the Indians to eliminate Chinese TELARS. Combine with natural failure rates and the missiles are much less of a threat.

The Chinese got a very big head start at this level.

The Chinese are not the Soviets, will not be at that level for a while. Indian capabilities with the MKI+ Rafale will compare well with Britain and France, numerically and technically, and the deployment of AWACS and EW planes by the IAF will go a long way toward offsetting China's advantage.

India ain't the US nor even NATO and you keep missing the point. The Chinese don't give a crap's ass about their planes. At best, both the InAF and the China AF are the straws that break the camel's back. Neither AF is capable of shaping the battlefield. What the Chinese are worried about is to prevent that Indian AF from becoming that straw. They couldn't care less how many planes you shot down. They, however, do care about owning the battlefield and from that perspective, the InAF would be wasting their time and resources knocking Chinese planes out of the sky.


of a threat.[/quote]The Chinese got a very big head start at this level.

The Rafale could bypass Chinese MiG layers and mission kill or even takedown Chinese AWACS and Sukhois/J-11.

No, they could not. You bypass the MiGs and you give the MiGs a clear shot at your AWACs. That was why the RAFAEL stood ZERO chance of penetrating Soviet Airspace, especially their MiF

The bird is built to contend with (and beat) late model Flankers and contains many systems similar to the JSF. Even 2 squadrons will be a big headache for the Chinese, and a big threat to the Pakistanis.

Again. Go. Every plane shooting down Chinese planes ain't bombing Chinese columns.

[Duellist]

Even a mission kill is adequate to keep the PLAAF away from Indian AWACS, which will also be protected by Tejas et al.
Light CAS aircraft like Tejas can bomb Chinese columns while Rafale and MKI's hit Chinese AWACS and C3- that have survived Indian cruise missile strikes anyway. These are capabilities India has or will have in the next few years. The Chinese will also have to take into account Indian SAM's and artillery, which can hurt them in the air and on the ground.

[Stitch]

Call me impressed; I've seen the Rafale go from the red-headed stepchild of the international fighter community, to a highly sought-after Gen 4.5 multi-role plartform:

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/raf...ucc-1701174913

[Officer of Engineers]

Even a mission kill is adequate to keep the PLAAF away from Indian AWACS,

What part of you do not bypass MiGs into your rear area don't you understand? These are fighter jets with far more lethality than an AWACs. The only soft kill an AWACs can do is to run away ... and killing your own mission asw ell.

which will also be protected by Tejas et al.

They have more way more MiG-21s than you have TEJAS.

Light CAS aircraft like Tejas can bomb Chinese columns while Rafale and MKI's hit Chinese AWACS and C3- that have survived Indian cruise missile strikes anyway.

And you don't think they can do it to you first and do it more than you coukd>

These are capabilities India has or will have in the next few years.

The Chinese could do this 10 years ago.

The Chinese will also have to take into account Indian SAM's and artillery, which can hurt them in the air and on the ground.

You are a friggin fan boy with zero appreciation of the ORBATs and the current military balance in play. India is playing catch up and the Chinese are sprinting ahead. They have 2000 missiles as of today. Six years ago, they had 1600. You're suggesting India would have 1000 by the end of the decade.

Do the figgin math!

India cannot play the game you're suggesting. She lose and lose big. She has to play a different game and one you could not understand. Hint. General KJ Sundarji.