What is up with the F-35? Part II

[gf0012-aust]

Here's an article without Tyler Rogoway's hyperbole:

http://www.janes.com/article/60050/u...te-to-the-test

Interesting to see the JTRS reference. I worked on JTRS "like" programs a few years back and there wasn't any indication that USAF was heading down the path (even thought it was kind of self evident and logical).

Its really interesting as it infers that the F-22 is a passive node - and able to do a lot more ewarfare things than its architecture "could" It also means that the high level ewarfare systems management between it, JSF, Growlers, E8's etc... might be a tad more complex than believed (or even what the industry was aware of)

[Stitch]

Pilots Say F-35 Fighter Is A Winner. So Where's The Media Coverage?
By Loren ThompsonA further question: If the F-35 is such a demon at air combat...when does it get thrown up against the F-22?

Pretty much everyone agrees (even F-35 pilots) that, in a contest, the F-22 would probably win; better BVR performance combined with a lower overall RCS and higher sustained kinematics would give the edge to the Raptor. The F-35's sensor fusion might be better, but it wasn't optimized for BVR performance. However, in close (WVR), the Raptors advantages would be neutralized, and the F-35 would definitely have the edge.

[SteveDaPirate]

Pretty much everyone agrees (even F-35 pilots) that, in a contest, the F-22 would probably win; better BVR performance combined with a lower overall RCS and higher sustained kinematics would give the edge to the Raptor. The F-35's sensor fusion might be better, but it wasn't optimized for BVR performance. However, in close (WVR), the Raptors advantages would be neutralized, and the F-35 would definitely have the edge.

I'm under the opposite impression. I think the F-22 is better at killing 4th gen fighters, but the F-35 is going to be better vs 5th gens.

Gen. Hostage quoted the F-35's stealth as being "better" than the Raptor's although nobody is sure if he was referring to the frontal aspect or overall. I'm not sure which fighter's RCS edges out which, but I think they are close enough that the point is moot. With low RCS in both platforms, IR sensors are likely to play a more decisive role at giving the first look/first shot than radar. The F-35 has the best IR sensors in the business, while the F-22 would need a podded solution that would spoil it's RCS to have one at all. This is a critical weakness in a 5th gen fight.

F-35s are also superior at fusing and sharing information between platforms. While it wouldn't be all that helpful in a 1v1 fight vs an F-22, a 4v4 scuffle might be another story entirely as the F-35's sensors become additive in nature. Four AN/APG-81's working together > single AN/APG-77's, particularly since the AN/APG-81 can not only detect but JAM the AN/APG-77...

Airborne detection of stealth aircraft may already be an operational capability. In a series of tests at Edwards AFB, Calif., in 2009, Lockheed Martin’s CATbird avionics testbed—a Boeing 737 that carries the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter’s entire avionics system—engaged a mixed force of F-22s and Boeing F-15s and was able to locate and jam F-22 radars, according to researchers. Raytheon’s family of X-band airborne AESA radar—in particular, those on upgraded F-15Cs stationed in Okinawa—can detect small, low-signature cruise missiles.

http://aviationweek.com/awin/china-s...anced-defenses

[JA Boomer]

Pretty much everyone agrees (even F-35 pilots) that, in a contest, the F-22 would probably win; better BVR performance combined with a lower overall RCS and higher sustained kinematics would give the edge to the Raptor. The F-35's sensor fusion might be better, but it wasn't optimized for BVR performance. However, in close (WVR), the Raptors advantages would be neutralized, and the F-35 would definitely have the edge.

I've seen the bolded point disputed in recent years. It seems the F-35's smaller size and 10 years advancement of stealth contours, paneling, and coatings have made the F-35 the more stealthy aircraft.

From: http://aviationweek.com/blog/f-35-stealthier-f-22

Former Air Combat Command chief Gen. Mike Hostage: The F-35′s cross section is much smaller than the F-22′s. “The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.”

The F-22 has a bigger radar, more internal weapons carriage, and vastly superior kinematics. The F-35 has better situation awareness and is stealthier. F-22 wins more often than not in my mind.

[SteveDaPirate]

The F-22 has a bigger radar, more internal weapons carriage, and vastly superior kinematics. The F-35 has better situation awareness and is stealthier. F-22 wins more often than not in my mind.

The F-22's radar is bigger, but it is also an older design that is vulnerable to both detection and jamming by the F-35's...

The total lack of IRST on the F-22 is also a huge gaping hole in a 5th gen fight that advantages in kinematics and throw weight are unlikely to make up for. Being able to maneuver faster than your opponent is only helpful if you know where your opponent is and what they are doing. The F-35's IR suite will almost certainly give their pilots an earlier look vs F-22s than radar, and allows the F-35s to avoid emitting at all. The F-22 pilots have to use their radars to find the F-35s and are more vulnerable to detection because of it.

[JA Boomer]

The F-22's radar is bigger, but it is also an older design that is vulnerable to both detection and jamming by the F-35's...

The total lack of IRST on the F-22 is also a huge gaping hole in a 5th gen fight that advantages in kinematics and throw weight are unlikely to make up for. Being able to maneuver faster than your opponent is only helpful if you know where your opponent is and what they are doing. The F-35's IR suite will almost certainly give their pilots an earlier look vs F-22s than radar, and allows the F-35s to avoid emitting at all. The F-22 pilots have to use their radars to find the F-35s and are more vulnerable to detection because of it.

I agree with you. I guess I was thinking of a 1v1 scenario where I think the kinematic advantage of the F-22 would win the day. 2v2 or 4v4 I think you're right, the situational awareness, newer radar, DAS, data sharing, and missile cueing of the F-35s would make it very difficult on the F-22s.

[SteveDaPirate]

I agree with you. I guess I was thinking of a 1v1 scenario where I think the kinematic advantage of the F-22 would win the day.

If they were artificially plopped into eyeball range or at least close enough that they can get radar locks, the F-22's kinematics undoubtedly will give it a big edge.

The thing is, with the F-35's DAS looking in all directions all the time, I don't know how an F-22 is supposed to sneak up on an F-35 from any kind of range unless the F-35's pilot is asleep. The F-35's DAS has not only detected, but tracked tank fire on the ground as well as ballistic missiles in excess of 800 miles away! I have trouble believing those low bypass F-119s the F-22 sports aren't going to stick out like a sore thumb against a cold sky.

[citanon]

If they were artificially plopped into eyeball range or at least close enough that they can get radar locks, the F-22's kinematics undoubtedly will give it a big edge.

The thing is, with the F-35's DAS looking in all directions all the time, I don't know how an F-22 is supposed to sneak up on an F-35 from any kind of range unless the F-35's pilot is asleep. The F-35's DAS has not only detected, but tracked tank fire on the ground as well as ballistic missiles in excess of 800 miles away! I have trouble believing those low bypass F-119s the F-22 sports aren't going to stick out like a sore thumb against a cold sky.

Remember the ground is only 10-50K feet away. The missile plume is huge and above the atmosphere. The F22 will be a more difficult target as long as it sticks to BVR.

My guess is the F22s will need to use its kinematics and take a high velocity missile shot. The problem is how is it going to see the F35 before being detected and attacked itself? They will have to pull some serious hijinx to accomplish it.

I bet a mixed team of F22s and F35s will beat out a pure team of F35s. But a team of F22s alone might actually have a hard time because it doesn't have the IR sensors.

And no 1v1s. That would be stupid in a stealth v stealth fight.

[Stitch]

I've seen the bolded point disputed in recent years. It seems the F-35's smaller size and 10 years advancement of stealth contours, paneling, and coatings have made the F-35 the more stealthy aircraft.

Perhaps I should've been more specific; my understanding is that the F-22 has a slightly lower RCS in all aspects (front/side/rear/top/bottom), whereas the F-35 is superior in a head-on scenario due to it's design emphasis on precision strike vs. air-to-air.

[Stitch]

The F-22's radar is bigger, but it is also an older design that is vulnerable to both detection and jamming by the F-35's...

Depends on the Block. The AN/APG-81 is actually based on the AN/APG-77 architecture, using a smaller AESA array (1200 modules vs 1500 modules in the -77); the Block 4 Raptors and beyond will have an AESA array built with the same T/R components that are in the F-35 and F-16E/F radar arrays (the AN/APG-81 and AN/APG-80, respectively). In terms of sheer power, the -77 probably outclasses the -81 due to the greater number of T/R modules.

[JA Boomer]

Perhaps I should've been more specific; my understanding is that the F-22 has a slightly lower RCS in all aspects (front/side/rear/top/bottom), whereas the F-35 is superior in a head-on scenario due to it's design emphasis on precision strike vs. air-to-air.

I suspect you are correct, we'll probably never know for sure. 10 years advancement in stealth design is a lot, but the engine nozzle on the F-35 seems to stick out like a sore thumb in terms of signature reduction.

I bet a mixed team of F22s and F35s will beat out a pure team of F35s. But a team of F22s alone might actually have a hard time because it doesn't have the IR sensors.

I sure begs the question of how impressive an F-22B with all the tech insertion from the F-35 would be.

And no 1v1s. That would be stupid in a stealth v stealth fight.

Sure, but isn't 1v1 a fairly commonplace training scenario within most air forces? That's how this conversation got started.

[SteveDaPirate]

Remember the ground is only 10-50K feet away. The missile plume is huge and above the atmosphere. The F22 will be a more difficult target as long as it sticks to BVR.

My guess is the F22s will need to use its kinematics and take a high velocity missile shot. The problem is how is it going to see the F35 before being detected and attacked itself? They will have to pull some serious hijinx to accomplish it.

A missile plume is much easier to spot than jet exhaust, but if the DAS system is tracking ballistic missiles at 800+ miles, I'm confident that it will pickup stealth jets approaching well before either aircraft's radar begins to have a meaningful influence on the fight considering the low RCS of both platforms.

The F-22's strengths play right into the hands of another stealth fighter with a first class IR suite since a Raptor super-cruising at 65,000 feet just under mach 2 is a perfect target to light up on IRST sensors from long range. It is silhouetted against the cold background of space, above weather that might otherwise obscure it, moving fast enough to to experience significant airframe heating (apparently the source of the Raptor's speed limit), with engines that don't utilize much in the way of bypass air that would help cool the exhaust.

Much of this could be mitigated if the F-22 were to fly at a lower altitude where it could use clouds or even the Earth to obscure its approach from hostile IR sensors, low mach or subsonic speeds to avoid airframe heating and a high bypass engine to mix lots of cold air with the exhaust. But then you've just described the F-35 :)

I bet a mixed team of F22s and F35s will beat out a pure team of F35s. But a team of F22s alone might actually have a hard time because it doesn't have the IR sensors.

And no 1v1s. That would be stupid in a stealth v stealth fight.

Agreed, cooperative engagement with F-35 sensors and F-22 shooters is a scary proposition, since F-35s acting as pseudo AWACS can vector F-22s or their missiles to targets without either aircraft having to give away their position with radar prior to firing. Their different styles can definitely be complementary.

[JA Boomer]

Much of this could be mitigated if the F-22 were to fly at a lower altitude where it could use clouds or even the Earth to obscure its approach from hostile IR sensors, low mach or subsonic speeds to avoid airframe heating and a high bypass engine to mix lots of cold air with the exhaust. But then you've just described the F-35 :)

Agreed, cooperative engagement with F-35 sensors and F-22 shooters is a scary proposition, since F-35s acting as pseudo AWACS can vector F-22s or their missiles to targets without either aircraft having to give away their position with radar prior to firing. Their different styles can definitely be complementary.

Can the F135 really be considered higher-bypass than the F119?

Can the F-22 and F-35 even talk to each other though, I thought that was some time away?

[SteveDaPirate]

Depends on the Block. The AN/APG-81 is actually based on the AN/APG-77 architecture, using a smaller AESA array (1200 modules vs 1500 modules in the -77); the Block 4 Raptors and beyond will have an AESA array built with the same T/R components that are in the F-35 and F-16E/F radar arrays (the AN/APG-81 and AN/APG-80, respectively). In terms of sheer power, the -77 probably outclasses the -81 due to the greater number of T/R modules.

Going by the chart you posted, we're looking at fighters in the .001-.0001 RCS range depending on the angle, which means the difference in detection distance between an F-22 and F-35 using radar to find each other is maybe 2-3 miles and will occur when the aircraft are between 15 and 20 miles away. With combined closing speed of 2400 mph that's a ~3 second difference.

IRST systems like the Eurofighter's PIRATE can track subsonic fighters between 30-60 miles away depending on frontal or rear approach. Detection ranges are increased at higher altitudes due to less atmospheric absorption of IR radiation.

[SteveDaPirate]

Can the F135 really be considered higher-bypass than the F119?

Can the F-22 and F-35 even talk to each other though, I thought that was some time away?

The F135 has a bypass ratio of 0.57:1 compared to the F119's 0.2:1. A lower bypass ratio maximises the power you can get from an engine of a given diameter, while a higher ratio increases fuel efficiency and therefore range. For reference, a commercial airliner like the 787's high bypass RR Trent 1000 engines have a bypass ratio of 10:1.

With the cancellation of the F-22's MADL upgrade, I'm not sure what the USAF has in mind. I doubt they'll want to strap the F-15's Talon Hate pod to an F-22, but I'm sure they'll figure something out. Alternatively, they may have decided to combo F-35s with fast, high flying F-15 arsenal planes, while the F-22s stick to the 4th gen slaying role they were designed for and excel at.