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What is up with the F-35? Part II

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  • Apologies.

    I'm on my portable and the link might not work properly but I thought this article was worth reading.


    Pentagon's Best-Kept Secret: F-35 Fighter Is Progressing Nicely - Forbes

    If you pay any attention to media coverage of the F-35 fighter program, then you know the Pentagon’s biggest weapons program is “troubled” (to use the favored adjective of reporters). Flight tests are lagging, costs are skyrocketing, and overseas partners are beginning to get cold feet. So the Joint Strike Fighter, as it used to be called, is looking like another black eye for the Pentagon’s fouled up acquisition system, right?

    Wrong. The reality is that for the third straight year flight tests are ahead of schedule, the cost to build each plane is falling fast, and international partners are so enthused that new customers are getting in line for the F-35 on a regular basis (South Korea will be next). So how come you don’t know any of this? The reason you don’t know it is that political appointees have decided they can score points with Congress by attacking their own program, and national media always lead with the most sensational information.

    For instance, Pentagon officials recently disclosed that the cost of building and operating the F-35 had risen to $1.5 trillion —without mentioning that a third of that total is unprovable estimates of future inflation and two-thirds of supposed increases from the program baseline reflect changes in how costs are calculated rather than real increases. Officials also didn’t mention it would cost two or three times more to stick with the current fleet of fighters, given the cost of maintaining aging aircraft. Most news accounts just cited the trillion-dollar price-tag, preferring to stick with the “troubled program” theme. Easy to write, no thinking required.

    There’s another side to this story, and it’s mostly positive. It helps explain why none of the three services receiving the plane is going to cancel its version and why none of the allies who signed on to the program when economies were stronger is now going to back out. F-35 is well on its way to being the most capable, cost-effective tactical aircraft in the history of warfare, and you can see that fact clearly reflected in how the flight-test program is progressing, the production cost is falling, and other countries are jockeying to get the plane.

    Flight tests. Let’s start with the flight tests that are steadily verifying all the performance features of the aircraft. The program has surpassed its goals for flight testing in each of the last three years, doing 15 percent better than planned in 2011 and 20 percent better than planned so far in 2012. Collectively, the three versions of the F-35 have now flown well over 2,000 times, accomplishing more than a quarter of the planned tasks in a comprehensive testing regime. By the end of this year, the most common version of the plane —the one that will be used by the Air Force and exported to most foreign customers —will be 45 percent of the way through all its flight tests.

    There has been a lot of talk lately about the dangers of producing F-35s before testing is completed, because if problems are found then planes already built will supposedly require costly fixes. So far, though, the danger seems to be mainly theoretical: Wikipedia says the price-tag for correcting problems uncovered in testing is $1.3 billion, which is less than one-half of one-percent of the production cost for 3,000 domestic and foreign fighters. Another concern has been delays in software; however, as of today 95 percent of the plane’s airborne software is either being used in flight tests or being tested in labs. No show-stoppers in sight, either in the hardware or in the software.

    Few outsiders realize how smoothly the F-35 flight-test schedule is unfolding, so here are a few milestones of progress thus far this year. On January 18 the Air Force version performed its first night flight. On March 22 it conducted its first night-time refueling mission. On April 21 it completed its first aerial-refueling mission while carrying weapons. The Marine version accomplished the same refueling with weapons on board two week earlier; designed to land on a dime almost anywhere, the Marine variant has performed over 500 short takeoffs and over 300 vertical landings. The flights generally go well, which is why the testing schedule is so far ahead of plan.

    Production Costs. The factor that usually trips up new weapons programs is cost, because while nobody in Congress understands how to measure the stealthiness of an F-35, everybody thinks they understand a price-tag. Pentagon leaders have thoroughly confused this issue by making it sound like the cost of F-35 is going up while actually taking huge amounts of money out of the program each year. In 2011 they cut 122 planes and $10 billion from near-term spending plans for the program; in 2012 they cut another 124 planes and $9 billion; and now in 2013 they have proposed cutting 179 planes and $15 billion. Cutting the rate at which F-35s are produced definitely increases the cost of each plane, but during the Obama years the program has become more of a piggy bank than a money pit for Pentagon planners.

    Obviously, any money that already has been spent can’t be recovered. However, when you look at the cost going forward to build each new plane, that’s coming down —and fast. The “unit recurring flyaway” cost for the most common variant of F-35 fell below $150 million each in the third low-rate production lot and will fall below $100 million in the fifth lot currently being negotiated. By the time its gets to the tenth production lot, the recurring flyaway cost of the most common variant will be approaching what legacy F-16 and F/A-18 fighters sell for today. Granted, that’s just what it costs to “drive it off the lot,” and doesn’t include items like training and spare parts. On the other hand, the price-tag on legacy fighters doesn’t include all the equipment they will need in combat (the F-35 price-tag does), and older fighters don’t have the F-35′s stealth.

    Foreign Partners. The F-35 effort was conceived in the Clinton years as a program that would provide next-generation fighters not only for the United States, but for eight other countries. The United Kingdom contributed $2.5 billion to its development, while Italy and the Netherlands each contributed $1 billion. Australia, Canada, Denmark, Norway and Turkey each contributed over $100 million. Thus, any sign that these overseas partners are wavering in their commitment is taken as evidence that trouble may lie ahead for the program.

    However, support for the program has remained strong despite recent weakening of the global economy. Norway’s defense minister stated in March, “We remain confident that the F-35 represents the best capability for the best value possible.” Australia’s air force chief said last week that the 100 F-35s his nation needs are “still affordable” within a budget range established in 2003. The United Kingdom has shifted the variant it plans to buy while remaining dedicated to the program. Even Italy, the country which faces the direst financial circumstances among the original partners, has said that while it will trim its purchases of the plane, it still intends to build them indigenously for its military.

    Meanwhile, Israel, Japan and Singapore have all indicated an interest in purchasing the F-35, while Asian observers say South Korea may soon become its newest customer. International interest is so strong that other countries are likely to buy as many F-35s over the next five years as the U.S. government, and eventually will buy more than the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps programs of record combined. So the F-35 isn’t just going to be the most widely used fighter in the world for the next several decades, it is also going to be one of America’s biggest export items.

    All of which proves that you can’t believe everything you read in the newspaper (assuming you still read one). Despite the persistent negativism of F-35 coverage in the national media, the program is progressing steadily. That’s a good thing because none of the U.S. military services and overseas allies participating in the program has a backup plan for maintaining air dominance if it falters. For all the hand-wringing and delays, the F-35 fighter is gradually becoming an American success story. It would be nice to hear somebody in the Pentagon actually say that.
    Last edited by YellowFever; 20 Jun 12,, 18:10.

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    • So by the third lot, the common and cheapest version will finally be cheaper than the F-22.

      Got it.

      Comment


      • F-35 DAS and Radar Demonstrate Ability to Detect, Track, Target Ba

        LINTHICUM, Md., June 26, 2012 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Northrop Grumman Corporation (NOC) recently demonstrated the ballistic missile detection, tracking and targeting capabilities of the company's AN/AAQ-37 distributed aperture system (DAS) and AN/APG-81 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, both of which are featured on the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) aircraft.
        A video accompanying this release is available on YouTube at F-35 AN/AAQ-37 DAS and AN/APG-81 detect multiple rocket launches - YouTube.
        Leveraging NASA's Science Mission Directorate-sponsored Anomalous Transport Rocket Experiment launch operation, the demonstration was coordinated with NASA and the U.S. Air Force to ensure that it did not impact NASA's primary science mission goals. The systems were demonstrated in flight onboard the company's BAC1-11 testbed aircraft.
        Northrop Grumman's DAS and APG-81 autonomously detected, tracked and targeted multiple, simultaneous ballistic rockets. The DAS autonomously detected all five rockets, launched in rapid succession, and tracked them from initial launch well past the second stage burnout.
        "Northrop Grumman demonstrated these ballistic missile tracking modes with only minor modifications to the baseline F-35 JSF radar and DAS software," said Jeff Leavitt, vice president of Northrop Grumman's combat avionic systems business unit. "Since DAS is always staring simultaneously in every direction, an operator does not have to point the sensor in the direction of a target to gain a track. The F-35 pilot could continue the primary mission while the sensors automatically observe ballistic missile threats."
        The APG-81 AESA radar demonstrated the ability to provide acquisition and weapons quality tracks independently, and also via pointing cues from DAS for expedited and extended range target acquisition. The radar maintained each track from initial acquisition until the rocket exited the radar's field of view.
        Leavitt added that Northrop Grumman is currently exploring how the existing DAS technology could assist in several additional mission areas, including irregular warfare operations.
        The multifunction AN/APG-81 AESA radar is capable of the full range of air-to-air and air-to-surface capabilities complemented by significant electronic warfare and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance functions. The AN/AAQ-37 DAS provides passive spherical awareness for the F-35, simultaneously detecting and tracking aircraft and missiles in every direction, and providing visual imagery for day/night navigation and targeting purposes.
        Northrop Grumman is a leading global security company providing innovative systems, products and solutions in aerospace, electronics, information systems, and technical services to government and commercial customers worldwide. Please visit Northrop Grumman Corporation - The Value of Performance for more information.Link
        Does the US have a A-to-A anti-BM missile in service that can be launched from traditional fighters?

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        • There was one cleared for the F-15 If memory serves me correctly (A bit seized up at the moment).
          Ego Numquam

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          • Originally posted by Chunder View Post
            There was one cleared for the F-15 If memory serves me correctly (A bit seized up at the moment).
            I think you're thinking of the ASM-135 ASAT that was developed back in the '80's; it was successfully tested by launching it from a specially-modified F-15A in a supersonic zoom climb. An ASM-135 successfully destroyed a defunct astrophysics satellite, the Solwind P78-1, in 1985.
            "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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            • I wonder the utility of using a fighter to launch one. Surely an additional booster would make up for any difference a jet might make? 15 minutes to touchdown isn't much time to be playing around launching intercepts?
              Ego Numquam

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              • Originally posted by Chunder View Post
                I wonder the utility of using a fighter to launch one. Surely an additional booster would make up for any difference a jet might make? 15 minutes to touchdown isn't much time to be playing around launching intercepts?
                It does now (look at the RIM-161 SM-3); the boost and second stage of the RIM-161 more or less take the place of the F-15.
                "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jimmy View Post
                  So by the third lot, the common and cheapest version will finally be cheaper than the F-22.

                  Got it.
                  Well, the estimation was that through life cycle costs between the services would save 60 Billion in commonality.

                  According to wiki, the program cost of the F-22 was 66.7 billion with a fly away cost of $150 million in 2009.

                  As the article says the current LR3P batch (I.E all that entails) is 150 Million each for the most common variant(airforce). That's in 2012 Dollars (Less than the 150 Million in 2009 Dollars).

                  You could keep producing the F-22 for the Airforce (try replacing those F-15's/F-16's which is what the issue was with the F-22 to begin with was)- but then you'd have a Navy without a top notch air superiority fighter. As well as all of your allies who are buying the thing. That is the whole point of the program, especially in these times. If the A/C is critical to the future of Navy/Marine/Airforce, it can't just be abandoned.

                  Thats due to fall to 100 Million, and further still later down the line.

                  Then there is the savings because of commonality.
                  Ego Numquam

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                  • Heres a doco on the X-32 v X35 comp http://documentaryheaven.com/battle-of-the-x-planes/
                    Ego Numquam

                    Comment


                    • More bad news for the F-35, industry-wise; looks like it's operacional costs are set to be the highest amongst modern western fighters (not including the F-22)

                      Gripen operational cost lowest of all western fighters - Jane's/

                      And it looks like the Netherlands might drop out of the program as well...

                      Comment


                      • More bad news for the F-35, industry-wise...
                        Why?

                        oh that link...

                        From linked source.
                        “The F-35 and twin-engined designs are all significantly more expensive per flight hour owing to their larger size, heavier fuel usage and increased number of airframe and systems parts to be maintained and repaired.
                        No, really?

                        F-35 Engine - 43,000*lbf (191*kN) and a dry thrust of approximately 28,000*lbf
                        Gripen Engine – 18,000 lb of thrust WITH wet thrust.

                        No wonder it's cheaper to run. Who woulda thought?

                        Given that the navy has to have all those extra parts made corrosion resistant, launch them under large point loads, and smash it's planes onto decks – it isn't that surprising the navy model is so expensive.

                        Or course, none of the cost benefits of the other fighters will matter jack if they get pwned... the quote did have this part as well ”system parts...”

                        That means the whole, not just the bits that rotate.

                        The Gripen is like the smart Car. Developed in due consideration for it's specific customer. Developed due to the very constitution of the country it is made in.
                        The F-35 is like an F-350 Lariat. Big bloody engine, and lots of toys inside.

                        The real story of the Gripen is much like the F-35 though - although stateside could probably afford to go it alone, the swede's needed partnership with Bae, with Norway, with the Danes and whoever else they could get, because R&D was crippling. (Just imagine if it was to the standard the F-35 is supposed to be at). Put it this way - the average Swede felt the price more than what your U.S taxpayer will.

                        I wouldn't be confusing politics and so called 'fiscal prudence' as a lack of faith, although sighted for political considerations in sighting the Netherlands. They are in wholesale armament clearance anyway. Everyone is. Look at the British. Heck, we just effectively halved our MBT force and stripped defence science tech organisation of funding...
                        Ego Numquam

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Chunder View Post
                          F-35 Engine - 43,000*lbf (191*kN) and a dry thrust of approximately 28,000*lbf
                          Gripen Engine – 18,000 lb of thrust WITH wet thrust.

                          No wonder it's cheaper to run. Who woulda thought?
                          I know that, and I'm not questioning the F-35's performance. But, cost-wise, this will be a major problem for any future sales pitch for foreign nations. It's not going to be an F-16 replacement...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                            I know that, and I'm not questioning the F-35's performance. But, cost-wise, this will be a major problem for any future sales pitch for foreign nations. It's not going to be an F-16 replacement...
                            Mate: The F-16 was designed in the 1970's, for a cold war requirement developed in the 1960's. It was a bare bones, no Radar interceptor. It could be easily sold to countries that you probably wouldn't be doing business with today. Countries that still operate them and can get through FMS requests. I think Turkey even manufactures them...

                            Some Context;

                            Many of these nations won't even be getting a sales pitch because Lockheed knows there will be SFA chance of FMS approval. Pakistan? Taiwan? Egypt? Indonesia? These sales were always a bonus. But the USAF needed a compliment to the F-22 for their battlefield. The partner nations also resolved that the F-35 was their kettle of tea as well. Many of whoom are F-16 operators.

                            The fact that it might be too pricey for some that otherwise would buy it - is too bad really. Either the aircraft fulfills U.S needs and saves U.S lives as a result of a requirement, and can be afforded by other countries in various versions dumbed down or source code supplied, or it won't be. Too bad.
                            Last edited by Chunder; 06 Jul 12,, 11:57.
                            Ego Numquam

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Chunder View Post
                              *snip F-16 & other nations
                              I know all this, but consider: the F-35 was, if I remember correctly, meant to replace multiple US aircraft, and as an afordable (or less expensive...) support for the F-22. Will not contest this, or it's current capability, cost efectiveness to the US, etc.

                              What I was refering to, when talking about "be an F-16 replacement" is this: the F-16 has been, without a doubt, a massive sales sucess. It has been sold to (afaik) 24 countries (+the US). While it did start as a "no frills" fighter, it evolveed into a good, multi-purpose, light fighter, while still being afordable for a lot of possible clients. For most nations, it does everything from air superiority to long range strike. The versions sold to the UAE are trully awesome.

                              But there will be a time when the F-16 will stop selling. What will the US industry have to compete with what other nations have to offer, such as the Grippen, or russian fighters? You can argue (rightly or not, won't dispute that here) that the F-35 is better than the others... but very very very few nations will be able to afford it. The US industry is rapidly coming to the point where no one outside the US will be able to aford what they sell... which will make the development of future US aircraft more expensive... thus leading to a perverse circle...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                                What I was refering to, when talking about "be an F-16 replacement" is this: the F-16 has been, without a doubt, a massive sales sucess. It has been sold to (afaik) 24 countries (+the US). While it did start as a "no frills" fighter, it evolveed into a good, multi-purpose, light fighter, while still being afordable for a lot of possible clients. For most nations, it does everything from air superiority to long range strike. The versions sold to the UAE are trully awesome.
                                As designs evolve, the work base becomes more efficient and cost effective, so does the technology that goes with this. You can slot in, upgrade, or purchase off the shelf systems into it. The F-35 is more than an airframe. It's a war fighting concept. Lockheed has made money privately, selling planes to the UAE, that were never part of the U.S Requirement. But it never would have reached this state otherwise.
                                But there will be a time when the F-16 will stop selling. What will the US industry have to compete with what other nations have to offer, such as the Grippen, or russian fighters? You can argue (rightly or not, won't dispute that here) that the F-35 is better than the others... but very very very few nations will be able to afford it. The US industry is rapidly coming to the point where no one outside the US will be able to aford what they sell... which will make the development of future US aircraft more expensive... thus leading to a perverse circle...
                                The U.S manned fighter market isn't just Lockheed. Boeing is still flogging Eagles and Hornets. Which are competing with russian counterparts.
                                Incidently, both the USN and, possibly the RAAF beleive a mix is possible.
                                Ego Numquam

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