Random Thoughts on the Mighty Hog - Part 2

[Officer of Engineers]

Three F-22 Raptors receive fuel from an MC-130J Commando II tanker during a Forward Arming and Refueling Point (FARP) operation.

Again, what's the military significance? All planes in question can do mid-air refuel to and from home base.

[Gun Grape]

1) The RH-53D used for Eagle Claw were USN, not USAF.

2) As you may know, the USAF doesn't operate H-47s or H-53s.

The USAF had the C-130s at Desert One and were responsible for the refueling op.

The Air Force operated MH-53s until 2008. Replaced by CV-22s

[Gun Grape]

Three F-22 Raptors receive fuel from an MC-130J Commando II tanker during a Forward Arming and Refueling Point (FARP) operation.

FARP took place on the runway at Tyndall AFB. Not an austere location. No ammo involved. FRP

[Gun Grape]

FARPS in the dirt are good for ground assets and helos. All ammo is man portable.

When you start trying to rearm aircraft with bombs, that requires heavy equipment. Which requires more support aircraft (C-130/17s). And recovery plans for that heavy equipment.
We don't have spare forklifts and bomb loading equipment just sitting around to be used on these things. When one gets stuck, or breaks down it has to be recovered.

Days to plan and at least a day to set up. Which leads to needing security. Even more support aircraft.

Fixed wing FARPs work real good at airports and on highways (practiced in Europe during the cold war). Not so good on dirt in the middle of nowhere

[Gun Grape]

Again, what's the military significance? All planes in question can do mid-air refuel to and from home base.

Col, the Air Force does this to practice for when USAF tanking assets are not available. Their planes cannot use the drogue system.
This allows them to accept fuel on the ground from Navy/USMC/Special Ops and Foreign refueling assets that don't have the boom system.

[Officer of Engineers]

Col, the Air Force does this to practice for when USAF tanking assets are not available. Their planes cannot use the drogue system.
This allows them to accept fuel on the ground from Navy/USMC/Special Ops and Foreign refueling assets that don't have the boom system.

GS, I understand that but his premise is a dry lakebed and for the life of me, I can't think of one scenario where that is applicable.

[SW4U]

GS, I understand that but his premise is a dry lakebed and for the life of me, I can't think of one scenario where that is applicable.

1) The premise (see post #173) was that the Hog was in theory designed to operate from unimproved surfaces, but that in practice this capability was only employed during limited tests carried out during the aircraft development.

2) I merely pointed out that take-off & landing from such unimproved surfaces was actually practiced on a fairly regular basis.

3) As a matter of fact, this capability is part of the official USAF pitch on the Hog, e.g. :

a) USAF A-10 Thunderbolt II Fact Sheet :

The Thunderbolt II can be serviced and operated from austere bases with limited facilities near battle areas. Many of the aircraft's parts are interchangeable left and right, including the engines, main landing gear and vertical stabilizers.

The upgraded A-10C reached initial operation capability in September 2007. Specifically designed for close air support, its combination of large and varied ordnance load, long loiter time, accurate weapons delivery, austere field capability, and survivability has proven invaluable to the United States and its allies.

b) Davis-Monthan AFB page :

357th FS, 22nd STS team up for austere landings

U.S. Air Force Maj. Paul Doran, 357th Fighter squadron pilot, lands an A-10C Thunderbolt II during austere landing training on Bicycle Lake Army Airfield at the National Training Center range, Fort Irwin, Calif., Sept. 22, 2015. The A-10 is the only fighter-type aircraft with the capability to land on unimproved surfaces. (U.S. Air Force photo by Senior Airman Betty R. Chevalier/Released)

[SW4U]

Unimproved surfaces are not just dry lakebeds BTW :

Video shows U.S. A-10s conducting austere landing training at an abandoned Warsaw Pact airfield in Poland
Jul 23 2015
By Jacek Siminski

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US Warthogs Land At An Abandoned Warsaw Pact Airfield in Poland (Image credit: U.S. Air Force)

US A-10 Thunderbolt II aircraft deployed to Europe as part of a U.S. Air Force TSP (Theater Security Package) conducted rough field training in Poland.

Territory of Poland is scattered, besides the highway strips, with old, abandoned Warsaw Pact military airfields which have not been in use since the Cold War.

Since Jul. 20, according to the Air Force Times, the Warthogs from the 354th Expeditionary Fighter Squadron temporarily based at Lask to strengthen the U.S. presence in eastern Europe amid growing tensions with Russia, have practiced landings and operations at Nowe Miasto, where the runway, unused for years, is far from pristine conditions: not a problem for the A-10 which is practically immune to FOD (Foreign Object Damage) thanks to its engines mounted far from the surface of the runway.

The operations conducted by the American pilots included night operations.

In his interview to Air Forces Times, Lt. Col Ryan Hayde, commander of the 354th Expeditionary Fighter Squadron, stated that the operations at the airfield were conducted with the help of the US Special Forces CCT’s (Combat Controllers), who acted as the air traffic control during the exercise, since the airfield has no ATC provided on regular basis.

Interestingly, the Polish Ministry of Defense kept the whole event in secrecy until the news was spread, post-factum by American sources. Even after the event, Lt. Col. Artur Goławski, spokesperson for the Polish General Command of the Armed Forced, denied the operation.

[SW4U]

And in Bulgaria :

U.S. Air Force A-10 and MC-130J combat planes at work out of an austere landing field in Bulgaria
Feb 24 2016
By Dario Leone

The Hogs are becoming increasingly active in eastern Europe.

Taken on Feb. 11, 2016 the following interesting pictures show U.S. Air Force A-10C Thunderbolt IIs and a single MC-130J Commando II operating out of an austere landing site at Plovdiv, Bulgaria.

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The Warthogs, assigned to the 74th EFS (Expeditionary Fighter Squadron), are currently deployed to Bulgaria as part of the European Theater Security Package in support of Operation Atlantic Resolve to bolster air power capabilities while assuring the U.S. commitment to European security and stability.

During their deployment, 74th EFS pilots took the chance to train in unimproved surface landings on an austere landing strip at Plovdiv, to simulate conditions of a deployed environment.

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This kind of training provides commanders the ability to project combat capability to areas otherwise denied by traditional airpower methods as explained by Lt. Col. Bryan France, 74th EFS commander: “The A-10 is a fighter aircraft that specializes in close air support, this training will prepare our pilots to land in a variety of surface conditions allowing us to bring the fight even further.”

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Alongside the Hogs also an MC-130J Commando II aircraft, assigned to the 67th SOS (Special Operations Squadron), practiced landing on the unimproved surface, bringing with it a key capability.

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In fact, being a tactical airlifter designed to operate in austere environments, the MC-130 can carry huge quantities of cargo while simultaneously having the ability to land in such difficult conditions.

Thanks to this unique ability the aircraft is able “to provide supplies to troops on the ground or in this case, a forward area refueling point to extend the range of our aircraft assets” Capt. Justin Nadal, a 67th SOS MC-130J Commando II aircraft commander, said.

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Noteworthy, according to Lt. Col. France, this type of exercises are aimed to demonstrate the U.S. Air Force ability to integrate across commands with joint forces while supporting NATO allies.

[SW4U]

And apropos of nothing :

[Officer of Engineers]

1) The premise (see post #173) was that the Hog was in theory designed to operate from unimproved surfaces, but that in practice this capability was only employed during limited tests carried out during the aircraft development.

2) I merely pointed out that take-off & landing from such unimproved surfaces was actually practiced on a fairly regular basis.

3) As a matter of fact, this capability is part of the official USAF pitch on the Hog, e.g. :

As the GS stated, there is a difference between landing and taking off and operating from non-secured airfields.

There is a need for aircrafts to be able to land and take off from unprepared surfaces under combat conditions. Friendly airfields may be under attack or the runways cratered and needed to be repair. Returning aircrafts would need somewhere they can land and then return to base when conditions allow it but you are not going to setup a tempoary air base so that the A10s or whatever are going to start conducting combat operations again.

For one thing, air traffic control would not have been setup to receive and launch aircrafts. Never mind that A10 pilots don't have new orders issued and a new target list to go after.

BTW, Bulgaria is a NATO member. I don't think the USAF would have tolerated UNPROFOR's conditions at Sarajevo airpoirt where all incoming and outgoing NATO aircrafts were within range of MANPADs and AAA.

[SW4U]

FARPS in the dirt are good for ground assets and helos. All ammo is man portable.

When you start trying to rearm aircraft with bombs, that requires heavy equipment. Which requires more support aircraft (C-130/17s). And recovery plans for that heavy equipment.

We don't have spare forklifts and bomb loading equipment just sitting around to be used on these things. When one gets stuck, or breaks down it has to be recovered.

Fair point re: bombs. Same problem with Mavericks.

No such problem with Hydra (& APKWS), or Hellfire (though integration on the A-10C has been on hold since 2008).

Zuni might well be an option (though procurement of laser-guided Zuni has been on hold since 2010 or so).

Incidentally, incresing the number of rockets carried by the A-10C is one of the main focus of the research project currently carried out by AF Academy cadets

[SW4U]

As the GS stated, there is a difference between landing and taking off and operating from non-secured airfields.

For one thing, air traffic control would not have been setup to receive and launch aircrafts. Never mind that A10 pilots don't have new orders issued and a new target list to go after.

He also stated that Harriers operated from a soccer stadium during ODS.

Meaning they had to be refueled, re-armed, and required ATC, target list to go after, etc...

[SW4U]

Of the 23 Su-25 lost by the Soviets in Afghanistan, 9 were destroyed on the ground in June 1988. Another Su-25 piloted by Alexander Rutskoy was shot by a Pakistani F-16 on 08/04/1988.

AV-8B+ from VMA-211 suffered the same fate in September 2012 :

Commanding Officer of the Harrier squadron decimated at Camp Bastion among the Marines killed in the Taliban attack
Sep 17 2012
By David Cenciotti

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The Marine Attack Squadron (VMA) 211 “Avengers” that was decimated on Friday Sept. 14, when a force of insurgents attacked Camp Bastion, in Helmand, has not only lost two Marines and eight of the ten AV-8B+ Harrier jets deployed in Afghanistan.

According to UTSanDiego.com, Marine and family sources have confirmed that Lt. Col. Chris “Otis” Raible, commanding officer of the Yuma squadron is among the killed in action of the unprecedented attack that resulted in the destruction of six jump jets and significant damage (possibly beyond repair) to two more Harriers belonging to the VMA-211, the unit he commanded.

The VMA-211 is part of the 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing headquartered in San Diego at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar.

Raible led the “Avengers” when the unit, deployed to Afghanistan in April 2012, relocated from Kandahar Airfield to Camp Bastion on Jul. 1 and he’s depicted in most of the images released by the U.S. Marine Corps to give account of the transfer.

Camp Bastion was in close proximity to all the units they supported and this gave the VMA-211 the opportunity to conduct more combat operations and communicate more effectively with the ground combat element.

Unfortunately neither Raible nor the rest of the “Avengers” could predict the attack that cost the U.S. the worst air loss to enemy fire in one day since the Vietnam War, that has rendered the Squadron unable to support the troops in the ground and compelled the Marine Corps to fly the remaining two airframes back home.

[Officer of Engineers]

He also stated that Harriers operated from a soccer stadium during ODS.

Meaning they had to be refueled, re-armed, and required ATC, target list to go after, etc...

Take a real good look here

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Ljq...tadium&f=false

The Marines set up a forward base with showers and toilets before the 1st Harrier arrived. They had a land LOC to secure the stadium.