Russia claims new tank invisible to radar/IR

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir,German policies aren't exactly what is needed.Heck,even if they were,the German army of today isn't ready.The US and UK are today the only powers that have a vested interest in keeping E Europe away from Russian influence.
As for losing wars vs Russia,I beg to disagree.The Russians do not win on home soil vs a militia.Let
Their forces aren't increasing at a rapid pace.Their response to this crisis is reorganizing a few Div's by merging a few Bde's.A war against regular NATO armies supported by American force multipliers and local militia(that will flock in the hundreds of thousands,unlike Ukraine) is going to ruin them.

Commanded and controlled by the Americans, meaning you won't be allow to fight a war that they don't want.

But as you said, what if they are distracted elsewhere? Which is what the Russians would be planning.

[Officer of Engineers]

Ukraine didn't

A war that Germany didn't want.

or do you suppose Estonia will invade Muscovy?

A war that Germany definitely don't want.

We merely wish to deter a war.

You need Germany to do that.

[snapper]

A war that Germany didn't want.

A war that Germany definitely don't want.

Thus our misgivings regarding German support in Belarus (for example). In the end only strong self reliance is dependable shared between CEE nations.

[Officer of Engineers]

Your CEE nations don't have an air force, don't have space satellite capabilities, don't have a navy, and don't have any force multipliers.

[Mihais]

Sir,we are aware of those points.The only assets are reasonable armies,difficult terrain,reasonably unified peoples willingly enough to fight,good enough internal security.
The Americans have the rest.The Germans have nothing.No Navy,no airforce,no prepared army and no willing population or politicians.
The issue here is whether US has enough spare assets in the event of a Russian invasion.We are aware that EE is the third in order of priorities,after the Pacific and the ME.But it also is the theater in need of least resources.
Having USAF rule the skies is good.But the Russians have both assets that can strike bases and enough ADA to make any flight a nightmare.So American AD to prevent their planes flying woyld be good enough.The space assets watch the Russians anyway,so passing intel is no big deal.
And selling of munitions is also doable.US diplomatic support is ongoing.Dog and pony shows are under way.
Thing is,from a cost benefit discussion,detering a Russian presence west of their current borders is easier to do than unifying the nations of the Pacific or doing the hard work in the ME.
As for fighting,we are not going to march into Russia.The Americans cannot prevent us from fighting in defence of our countries.

[Officer of Engineers]

Your point is deterrence, especially the Baltics. Without the Americans and Germans, can you point to anything that the Russians cannot sweep out of their way in the Baltics?

[snapper]

Europe without strong and independent CEE nations is a large war waiting to happen which would cost far more to deter or fight. We are aware of our shortcomings and seek to make them good but let's face the Ukrainians alone have fought the Muscovites and their proxies to a virtual standstill. If you do not defend the Dnipro you will have to defend the Vistula or the Danube. Don't defend them and you are on the Rhine. We are not without some know - how when it comes to bashing Muscovite 'liberators' (white or red). Nor do I think it would be entirely welcomed in Poland to ask the Germans in; it's a bit like asking the Serbs to seek 'salvation' from the Turks.

I don't know much about the Bulgarian situation but am not sure they are in Moscow's pocket. I recall some argument, last year I think, where they had their military aircraft refitted by the Poles - which naturally caused some rancour in Moscow. See also the Craiova Group and recent Visegrad meetings with Romania, Ukraine, Lithuania and others invited. Poland takes over the Presidency of Visegrad later this year.

[Officer of Engineers]

Europe without strong and independent CEE nations is a large war waiting to happen which would cost far more to deter or fight. We are aware of our shortcomings and seek to make them good but let's face the Ukrainians alone have fought the Muscovites and their proxies to a virtual standstill.

They had to lose a war before they fought the Russians to a standstill. The "republics" are still not under Kiev's control.

If you do not defend the Dnipro you will have to defend the Vistula or the Danube. Don't defend them and you are on the Rhine. We are not without some know - how when it comes to bashing Muscovite 'liberators' (white or red).

That's not the point. The point is besides the Americans, who is capable of forcing a pause on Russian adventures. I don't care if you're going to win the war in the long or short run. Your goal is to prevent the war in the first place. So, who besides the Americans, are capable of forcing the Russians to think twice?

Nor do I think it would be entirely welcomed in Poland to ask the Germans in; it's a bit like asking the Serbs to seek 'salvation' from the Turks.

The Poles ain't going to deter the Russians from taking the Baltics.

[snapper]

They had to lose a war before they fought the Russians to a standstill. The "republics" are still not under Kiev's control.

If the war was 'lost' how could we hold them to a standstill? We have lost battles but also won them, none were war winners or losers. The last time I was in Donbass earlier this week we were still fighting. I am reliably informed that the fighting is continuing as I write.

The Poles ain't going to deter the Russians from taking the Baltics.

Neither are the Germans as the Baltics as we have agreed (I thought) are currently indefencible. But isn't that why we have NATO? Hell we all know that the CEE nations have to do more toward their own security - as well as the Western European allies - but all we need is time.

[Officer of Engineers]

If the war was 'lost' how could we hold them to a standstill? We have lost battles but also won them, none were war winners or losers. The last time I was in Donbass earlier this week we were still fighting. I am reliably informed that the fighting is continuing as I write.

The point is that you're not deterring the Russians from anything. The fact that you fought them to a standstill does not change the fact that they could at anytime run circles around you.

Neither are the Germans as the Baltics as we have agreed (I thought) are currently indefencible.

The Americans have that role but Mihas's point was that the Americans could be distracted.

But isn't that why we have NATO?

The geographic heart of NATO is Germany.

Hell we all know that the CEE nations have to do more toward their own security - as well as the Western European allies - but all we need is time.

You need a lot more than that. A responsible leadership for a start.

[snapper]

The point is that you're not deterring the Russians from anything. The fact that you fought them to a standstill does not change the fact that they could at anytime run circles around you.

Some circles they have been running resulted in 3 Cargo 200 convoys returning to Rostov last week.

The Americans have that role but Mihas's point was that the Americans could be distracted.

They have been distracted since Obama got in.

The geographic heart of NATO is Germany.

Atlantic ocean somewhere no? My geography is not great but Alaska to Estonia...

You need a lot more than that. A responsible leadership for a start.

I have been critical of the new-ish Polish Government but on foreign policy they are strong and Duda is not entirely stupid; he takes sound advice. El Chocky (Poroshenko) I agree is an ass, but reforms are happening in Ukraine, albeit too slowly for the liking of many. The Romanian (German) President I have a good opinion of personally. Orban (Hungary) is bought - the PACS 2 deal.

[Officer of Engineers]

Some circles they have been running resulted in 3 Cargo 200 convoys returning to Rostov last week.

Still does not change the fact that they are more apt at maneuver warfare than the Ukrainians.

They have been distracted since Obama got in.

You're proving Mihas's point.

Atlantic ocean somewhere no? My geography is not great but Alaska to Estonia...

Fine. Germany is NATO's centre of mass. It's our major assembly point that Eastern Europe could not even begin to match.

I have been critical of the new-ish Polish Government but on foreign policy they are strong and Duda is not entirely stupid; he takes sound advice. El Chocky (Poroshenko) I agree is an ass, but reforms are happening in Ukraine, albeit too slowly for the liking of many. The Romanian (German) President I have a good opinion of personally. Orban (Hungary) is bought - the PACS 2 deal.

You need someone who isn't afraid to go nose-to-nose, eyeball-to-eyeball with Putin.

[snapper]

Still does not change the fact that they are more apt at maneuver warfare than the Ukrainians.

Time may tell on that.

You're proving Mihas's point.

Yet we have them at a standstill.

Fine. Germany is NATO's centre of mass. It's our major assembly point that Eastern Europe could not even begin to match.

My point is that if you wish deter in the Baltics the assembly points need to be moved east, into Romania and Poland.

You need someone who isn't afraid to go nose-to-nose, eyeball-to-eyeball with Putin.

Even Poroshenko can do that. The average Ukrainian soldier at the front does it day in, day out. Once you are past the 'image' there is only a Mafiosi dwarf. He's no great shakes, nor frankly are his advisers and troops or they'd have won Ukraine in 2014 as they planned. Imv the toughest 'leader' in the CEE nations currently is Dalia Grybauskaitė (President of Lithuania); almost Thatcheresque at times.

[Officer of Engineers]

Time may tell on that.

In less than 72 hours, they reversed the situation at Debaltseve and drove the Ukrainian Army out of DPR and LPR.

Yet we have them at a standstill.

They haven't made their moves yet.

My point is that if you wish deter in the Baltics the assembly points need to be moved east, into Romania and Poland.

They can't and they won't. Germany supported several army groups. We're just talking battalions in EE. A single British Battle Group, no matter how robust is not the British Army On the Rhine.

Even Poroshenko can do that. The average Ukrainian soldier at the front does it day in, day out. Once you are past the 'image' there is only a Mafiosi dwarf. He's no great shakes, nor frankly are his advisers and troops or they'd have won Ukraine in 2014 as they planned.

None has stood nose-to-nose with Putin.

[snapper]

In less than 72 hours, they reversed the situation at Debaltseve and drove the Ukrainian Army out of DPR and LPR.

Nothing was 'reversed' in the Debaltseve fiasco as we, stupidly, were not doing anything. I recall the arguments at the time... "but but Minsk 2...". F*ck Minsk 2 and to hell with Minsk 1 too. May they rot in Merkel and Hollandes graves.

They haven't made their moves yet.

Then the case remains to be proven.

They can't and they won't. Germany supported several army groups. We're just talking battalions in EE. A single British Battle Group, no matter how robust is not the British Army On the Rhine.

And thus we must be more self reliant and integrated within the CEE area. We know this and are taking steps to make it happen. But until these upgrades and adjustments are made it would be cheaper in lives and money for the 'old NATO' members to support us rather than face open war. The British at least understand this.

None has stood nose-to-nose with Putin.

As in some sort of face off? Not sure if there is any point in that. Personally I would refuse to speak to him. Send Surkov if you want to talk seriously - as they have been doing to meet Vicky Nuland.