Ask An Expert- LAND Forces.

[Albany Rifles]

Z,

A little too revisionist there. A lot of the issues with the Big 5 weapon systems was on the changes to requirements definition and testing. That issue more than anything else caused production delays. The M1 & M2 both entered low rate initial production under Carter for eveluation in the field and modification....that is what you do in a defense acquisition system. Some of the bigger issues with those systems was the associated support equipment also had to be developed. And the 105mm versus 120mm was more about the debate about whether we were going down the rifled versus smoothbore path....and that was squarely on the shoulders of FT Knox.

And 2 other weapon systems received big financial backing under Carter which produced large dividends for Reagan....the Pershing 2 and GLCM.

[zraver]

Z,

A little too revisionist there. A lot of the issues with the Big 5 weapon systems was on the changes to requirements definition and testing. That issue more than anything else caused production delays. The M1 & M2 both entered low rate initial production under Carter for eveluation in the field and modification....that is what you do in a defense acquisition system. Some of the bigger issues with those systems was the associated support equipment also had to be developed. And the 105mm versus 120mm was more about the debate about whether we were going down the rifled versus smoothbore path....and that was squarely on the shoulders of FT Knox.

And 2 other weapon systems received big financial backing under Carter which produced large dividends for Reagan....the Pershing 2 and GLCM.

Not really revisionist, it was RR who made the decision for wide scale production. You'll notice I didn't knock carter for the USAF, he spent money there more than anywhere. But it was RR who really brought the Army and Navy up to par.

I'd also debate the Pershing II being worth all that much, when the USSR signed the IRNT their economy was collapsing and they'd have taken anything to cut out an entire nuclear arena of operations and the associated costs.

IIRC, the Army opted for the 105mm becuase of the reduced costs, we already knew we were going 120mm SB, the M1 was built to be upgraded as soon as money allowed.

[Albany Rifles]

Not really revisionist, it was RR who made the decision for wide scale production. You'll notice I didn't knock carter for the USAF, he spent money there more than anywhere. But it was RR who really brought the Army and Navy up to par.

I'd also debate the Pershing II being worth all that much, when the USSR signed the IRNT their economy was collapsing and they'd have taken anything to cut out an entire nuclear arena of operations and the associated costs.

IIRC, the Army opted for the 105mm becuase of the reduced costs, we already knew we were going 120mm SB, the M1 was built to be upgraded as soon as money allowed.

Of course decided to conduct the buy....that is because those systems didn't pass their operational testing until near the end of the 1981!!! Several units had them and were testing them but they didn't receive authority to go full bore until after full testing.

Here are the major finding from the report of the OT from SEP 1980 to MAY 1981:

Findings:
Results from the crewstation interviews and end-of-test questionnaires
indicated a total of 94 probable or confirmed human engineering design .* .
* inadequacies, of whiclh 31 items were judged to be serious enough to induce
significant reductions in operational effectiveness. There were main design
problems with weapons controls and seating, e.g., the commander's power control
is located too low in the turret to reach when needed during the target
acquisition task; the controls for the commander's weapon are poorly designed,
and the majority of commanders feel they could not use them effectively; the
driver's seat is inadequately designed and produced neck and upper back pain
in the majority of drivers; there is no seating for commanders in open hatch.

Examples of other problems were that overall stowage space is seriously
inadequate; protective masks do not interface properly with gun sights; the
external gun sight gets dirty easily and often cannot be used when the tank
is in muddy or dusty terrain; the thermal night sight shuts down and cannot
be used when the gun is pointed forward, because its power unit is located
next to the heater vent which causes it to overheat.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...f&AD=ADA164538

The Bradley follows a similar path....developmental testing issues delayed completion of testing until 1979 when it was approved by OSD for full rate production in November and SECDEF Brown approved full rate production in February 1980. At that time funds allocated in Carter's FY 1980 Defense Budget and appropriated by Congress were released to begin full rate production.

So in both instances Carter's efforts were fully consistent with the US Code and public law.


I was in the heart of the area in Germany where the P 2s came in....they scared the hell out of the Soviets because a now Moscow was in range if they crossed the IGB...as were all critical choke points. Why do you think thye spent so much effort on their counter intel campaign to stir up the antinuke protesters who I had to deal with all through the summers of 1983 and 1984? P2 and GLCM were not doscounted by the USSR.

The Army selected the M68A1 because it was proven and their was sufficient logistics in place to support it. The Armor community had agreed to go 120mm but they could not make up their minds in time whether to go with the British or German design in time for the PM Abrams to start operational testing. R&D dollars by public law have to be spent within a certain time of appropriation or you lose them. The PM decided to go with a proven system but to make sure the design allowed for upgrade.

So there is no truth to "Carter tried to kill the M1 & M2 and Reagan saved them!" Jimmy Carter provided all the funding the Army needed to conduct development and testing of those weapon systems. When those systems were ready they were fully funded initially by Carter defense budgets. Defense budgeting for major weapon systems is done in 2 year cycles....so the M1s and M2s being produced by FMC and Lima tank plant in 1981 and 1982 were on funding allocated in Jimmy Carter's FY 1979 and 1980 defense budgets.

[zraver]

Of course decided to conduct the buy....that is because those systems didn't pass their operational testing until near the end of the 1981!!! Several units had them and were testing them but they didn't receive authority to go full bore until after full testing.

so like i said at the end of the day it was RR who decided to go forward.

I was in the heart of the area in Germany where the P 2s came in....they scared the hell out of the Soviets because a now Moscow was in range if they crossed the IGB...as were all critical choke points. Why do you think thye spent so much effort on their counter intel campaign to stir up the antinuke protesters who I had to deal with all through the summers of 1983 and 1984? P2 and GLCM were not doscounted by the USSR.

p2 cant reach moscow, that was the GLCM job. But neither did a mission manned aircraft and longer ranged missiles couldn't do. The protestors helped win the IRFT- i'd call that a good investment.

The Army selected the M68A1 because it was proven and their was sufficient logistics in place to support it. The Armor community had agreed to go 120mm but they could not make up their minds in time whether to go with the British or German design in time for the PM Abrams to start operational testing. R&D dollars by public law have to be spent within a certain time of appropriation or you lose them. The PM decided to go with a proven system but to make sure the design allowed for upgrade.

Nope, I've never heard a single reference to use seriously considering the British gun and the Abrams turret is built wrong for it anyway. But the mounting for the M256 was plug and plug from the drawing board- it was cost cutting pure and simple.

So there is no truth to "Carter tried to kill the M1 & M2 and Reagan saved them!"

I expect better from you than red herrings.

Jimmy Carter provided all the funding the Army needed to conduct development and testing of those weapon systems. When those systems were ready they were fully funded initially by Carter defense budgets. Defense budgeting for major weapon systems is done in 2 year cycles....so the M1s and M2s being produced by FMC and Lima tank plant in 1981 and 1982 were on funding allocated in Jimmy Carter's FY 1979 and 1980 defense budgets.

Well you seem to contradict S2, he gives carter credit for the M270... Be that as it may, carters initial production contracts used the 105 to save costs.

However none of what you wrote contradicts my original point- RR was the president who ramped everything up and transformed the US military.

[kato]

Why do you think thye spent so much effort on their counter intel campaign to stir up the antinuke protesters who I had to deal with all through the summers of 1983 and 1984?

As someone who took part in those protests in 1983 at age 4 (at the Stuttgart/Neu-Ulm human chain)... while there was a GDR-influenced (not Soviet) group among the protesters (oddly enough this group was lead by a Bundeswehr major general, the commander of 12th Armoured until 1980 - other groups with Bundeswehr members didn't have the GDR connection), the vast majority of the millions that took to the street to protest that gamble Reagan tried had nothing to do with them.
It's a legend among German conservatives mostly. One that has been disproven by historians analysing Russian and East-German archives with regard to a possible intrumentalization of the Peace Movement.

[Mihais]

so like i said at the end of the day it was RR who decided to go forward.



p2 cant reach moscow, that was the GLCM job. But neither did a mission manned aircraft and longer ranged missiles couldn't do. The protestors helped win the IRFT- i'd call that a good investment.



Nope, I've never heard a single reference to use seriously considering the British gun and the Abrams turret is built wrong for it anyway. But the mounting for the M256 was plug and plug from the drawing board- it was cost cutting pure and simple.



I expect better from you than red herrings.



Well you seem to contradict S2, he gives carter credit for the M270... Be that as it may, carters initial production contracts used the 105 to save costs.

However none of what you wrote contradicts my original point- RR was the president who ramped everything up and transformed the US military.

The point wasn't that Reagan didn't influenced anything,but rather that Carter recognized the faults and took steps to rectify them.I don't think it was one or another president,but rather a US national policy,manfested in the US military doctrines:flexible defense during Carter then Airland Battle when more means and more integration between services came to life.Simple as that.

[zraver]

The point wasn't that Reagan didn't influenced anything,but rather that Carter recognized the faults and took steps to rectify them.I don't think it was one or another president,but rather a US national policy,manfested in the US military doctrines:flexible defense during Carter then Airland Battle when more means and more integration between services came to life.Simple as that.

Most of the programs being given to carter have beginnings even earlier. Did Carter expand the army and navy? NO Did Reagen? Yes

[S2]

Zraver Reply

"so like i said at the end of the day it was RR who decided to go forward."

All Reagan could do was STOP what Carter had started. Needless to say he chose otherwise. You claim a red herring while tossing strawmen. 1961 and 1964? Well...I asked, didn't I? Of course, USAEUR was a slightly different beast then. Evidently, so too the Red Army.

So...to recap, you'll bitch about data relating Soviet ORBATs from 1975/1980/1991 but posit 1961/64 as proof-positive.

Whatever. As I said-you are obtuse. Congenitally so.

[S2]

kato Reply

"As someone who took part in those protests in 1983 at age 4...the vast majority of the millions that took to the street to protest that gamble Reagan tried had nothing to do with them."

That's hardly the point. Die Grünen made its name as much on the Pershing II protests as from any single cause. The Party's formation in January 1980 cannot be construed as entirely coincidental. As for the Soviet dis-information efforts, it has less to do with whom among W. Germans aligned themselves than putting the issue before the W. German people while assuring it had a GDR face.

For ourselves, the gambit was supported and served as a critical element to subsequent disarmament diplomacy-

Thirtieth Anniversary Of NATO's Dual-Track Decision

[zraver]

"so like i said at the end of the day it was RR who decided to go forward."

All Reagan could do was STOP what Carter had started. Needless to say he chose otherwise. You claim a red herring while tossing strawmen. 1961 and 1964? Well...I asked, didn't I? Of course, USAEUR was a slightly different beast then. Evidently, so too the Red Army.

Carter started...

AH-64 proposals sought in 1972

M1 Abrams, specifications for the XM815 (renamed M1 Abrams) 1971

M270 MLRS, army issued design requirements in 1975

M2/M3 proposals issued in 1972 and FMC won with the XM723

See the pattern? So what programs did Carter start? I doubt you can find two, I doubt you can find one cold war impacting technology initiated by Carter.

So...to recap, you'll bitch about data relating Soviet ORBATs from 1975/1980/1991 but posit 1961/64 as proof-positive.

I've been pretty clear the Red Army went through a major transition with increased emphasis on ground combat as the Soviet Union reached nuclear parity. The orbats you posted from the late cold war period are in agreement with this as are the orbats from the earlier period showing the pre-build up. Even into the 80's most MRR had a battery not a battalion, even the Soviet Union could only make stuff so fast, especially with the added stress of replacing the M30 122mm howitzer, supplying the WP, Arabs, India and Africa. Stripping the battery of 122mm howitzers from the 140ish divisions in 1961 and you about have the arty you need for the 60 or so divisions you begin adding in 64, supplemented in the 70's as the 2S1 and 2S3.

Whatever. As I said-you are obtuse. Congenitally so.

Hey Pot, its kettle...

[1979]

I was in the heart of the area in Germany where the P 2s came in....they scared the hell out of the Soviets because a now Moscow was in range if they crossed the IGB...as were all critical choke points. Why do you think thye spent so much effort on their counter intel campaign to stir up the antinuke protesters who I had to deal with all through the summers of 1983 and 1984? P2 and GLCM were not doscounted by the USSR.

I know that the actual missile ranges are clasiffied but I ofter wondered if the pershings 2 actually had the range to reach Moskow.
They certainly could not from their deployment area but close to the east german border , Hof - Moskow being 1810 km, they might.

[1979]

I've been pretty clear the Red Army went through a major transition with increased emphasis on ground combat as the Soviet Union reached nuclear parity. The orbats you posted from the late cold war period are in agreement with this as are the orbats from the earlier period showing the pre-build up. Even into the 80's most MRR had a battery not a battalion, even the Soviet Union could only make stuff so fast, especially with the added stress of replacing the M30 122mm howitzer, supplying the WP, Arabs, India and Africa. Stripping the battery of 122mm howitzers from the 140ish divisions in 1961 and you about have the arty you need for the 60 or so divisions you begin adding in 64, supplemented in the 70's as the 2S1 and 2S3.

The warsaw pact was supossed to licence build their own equiptment and ocasionally sell stuff to the Arabs too.
Not everybody chose to do so, for instance even as late as 1989 , the m-30 122 mm howitzer and was still in service and the regimental
artilery battalion was equipt with zis-3 76mm gun in Romanian armed forces. The modernisation of the artilerry begun only in the early 80's
and proceded slowly.
The poles and czechs did build their own equiptment folowing soviet licence and sold equiptment as well.

OT-64 SKOT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
152mm SpGH DANA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
RM-70 multiple rocket launcher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
TAB-71 - Wikipedia
T-54/55 operators and variants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
T-54/55 operators and variants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
T-54/55 operators and variants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

are the ones I can recall , the licence was also given for t-72 tank and specialised variants of soviet equiptment were build and modernised localy.
In terms of small arms production and export the list is even more extensive.

[kato]

@1979: Hof was an initial overrun zone and would have fallen in under 30 minutes in a conventional exchange.

[1979]

@1979: Hof was an initial overrun zone and would have fallen in under 30 minutes in a conventional exchange.

I was trying to push the launchers as far foward as posible to reach moskow. Anyway the GLCM 109 did have the range to reach moskow but they were slower.

[Albany Rifles]

I know that the actual missile ranges are clasiffied but I ofter wondered if the pershings 2 actually had the range to reach Moskow.
They certainly could not from their deployment area but close to the east german border , Hof - Moskow being 1810 km, they might.

1979

I said Moscow but I meant Soviet territory.
My bad.

Kato,

I am not denigrating or underplaying the very real concerns of the German populace over the deployment of the P2s and the British over the GLCMs. My point was that the USSR/Warsaw Pact did a lot in their power to disrupt the deployment, to include providing support to the Greens and RAF, in order to block them. They were not the driving force behind the movement nor were they the reason the movement arose. But they did play a part....because they were afraid of the P2s and GLCMs.

Those were game changers which offset the SS-20s.