Rear Area Operations

[BD1]

kato, is there any way to find any TO&E for units that used confiscated civilian tech - engineers, logistics, medics(?)

[kato]

Dragoner is planning to publish them as part of his ongoing project. Probably in a year or two ;)

Edit:
Example Transport Battalion for WBK command:
- 1st Coy (Staff) - 68 trucks
- 2nd - 5th Coy (Transport) - 88 trucks, total transport volumina per coy min 600 t / 200 m³

[BD1]

thanks! i´ll be waiting then.....

[kato]

Trucks and other vehicles wouldn't be impounded for such units btw - they were drafted instead. Legal difference is that the original owner remains the legal owner. They get the vehicle back after the war or the exercise it was drafted for - or if it was destroyed fair market value at that time. If property is seized for the defense of the federation the government would have to pay market value at the time when they impound it under German law.

[Albany Rifles]

Trucks and other vehicles wouldn't be impounded for such units btw - they were drafted instead. Legal difference is that the original owner remains the legal owner. They get the vehicle back after the war or the exercise it was drafted for - or if it was destroyed fair market value at that time. If property is seized for the defense of the federation the government would have to pay market value at the time when they impound it under German law.

For example there was a time that in Belgium, where bricks were a major building materiel, all brick hauling trucks had to have a certain amount capacity and a standardized crane built into them in order to be licensed. In time of mobilization all of these trucks and drivers would then fall under MOD and be used for hauling ammo. I know other NATO countries had similiar laws and arrangements.

[Doktor]

In the former country all vehicles considered trucks and terrain vehicles were subject of "borrowing" by the Army in case of need.

Of course no paying for the favor.

[kato]

In time of mobilization all of these trucks and drivers would then fall under MOD and be used for hauling ammo.

No need for that in the same sense here - because Mercedes-Benz also sold the old MB1017 standardized military 5-ton truck as a "civilian" version (MB NG, 1973-1988, three different series). Most of those were earmarked for drafting for example, probably around 50,000 or so in total i'd guess (the Bundeswehr already had 22,000 of them). Same thing for Unimog 2-ton trucks - not that we'd really need to draft any there. The plant in Gaggenau alone can easily pump out a thousand Unimogs per week (!). Before production is ramped up.

[kato]

Btw, here's the OOB for the 1970s German setup.

There were six "Home Commands", each a brigade-level unit intended to also serve as the core of a possible reserve division to be mobilized if the war drags on.

X Home Command

• III Light Infantry Regiment
  • II Light Infantry Battalion (active)
  • II Light Infantry Battalion (reserve)
• III Light Infantry Regiment
  • II Light Infantry Battalion (active)
  • II Light Infantry Battalion (reserve)
• I Tank Destroyer Company (active)
• I Tank Destroyer Company (reserve)
• I Tank Destroyer Company (reserve)
• I Tank Destroyer Company (reserve)
• I Mortar Company (active)
• I Mortar Company (reserve)
• II Light Engineer Battalion (reserve)
• II Supply Battalion (reserve)
• II Field Replacement Battalion (reserve)

Total heavy equipment for each home command was 68 KanJPz or M48A2, 28 ATGM, 36 mortars.

The active components were usually grouped as a single combined-arms regiment in peacetime. There were also a number of peacetime-only training centers (2-4) and a maintenance squad for the tank destroyers.

Light Infantry Battalions had four combat coys, truck-mounted with about 170 men each (four platoons), plus an ATGM Platoon with 7 PAL810 Cobra at battalion-level. No other heavy weapons. The four independent Tank Destroyer Companies were of standard configuration back then: 17 tank destroyers or MBTs; either Kanonenjagdpanzer or M48A2. Mortar Companies provided the indirect fire component, and each had 18 120mm mortars. Equipment was heavily mixed - towed mortars, HS30 mortar carriers and in rare cases M113 as mortar carriers.

The Supply Battalion grouped medics, maintenance and logistics for the brigade; this structure was abandoned in the 80s, and reinvented for the Franco-German brigade in the 90s. The Light Engineer Battalion had three identical companies of engineers, lacking the usual machinery company. The first two such battalions were launched as active units but then reorganized as corps engineer battalions for the field army and replaced by reserve units for the home commands.

The home commands were expanded into the (divisional) area defense commands in the 1980s, with most units added to it being inactive.

[kato]

Dragoner has now published the 1989 OoB for the Federal Border Guard and the ToE for the Civil Protection Troops. First off, here's the Civil Protection.

Civil Protection in Germany, 1989:

The task is taken up by 7 organizations (THW, DRK, ASB, JUH, MHD, DLRG, BVS) and the hundreds of professional and thousands of volunteer firefighter organizations. All of these form up into / field units with a federally standardized ToE.

There is no real OoB though, the units are dispersed to the political subunits of Germany and commanded in emergencies by local authorities. Each local authority directs the organizations within its scope to field units according to a general local Extended Disaster Protection plan.

Below are the numbers of such units for all of Germany. This includes Berlin, although the numbers for Berlin are rather marginal - the city state government was very lax in planning and never even remotely fielded what it originally had planned.

Command Assets (total 6,212 men):

• 342 TEL : Local Command Squads (10 men each)
• 264 FüGr Ber : Company/Squadron Command Squads (9 men each)
• 52 ErkLoGr : Reconnaissance and Pilot Squads (8 men each)

(squadron commands lead up to three identical platoons of other types, TELs are deployable commands for disaster zones)

Firefighting/Rescue (total 60,619 men):

• 96 BZ-50 : Rescue/Clearing Platoons (50 men each)
• 788 BZ-38 : Rescue Platoons (38 men each)
• 713 LZ-R : Firefighting/Rescue Platoons (25 men each)
• 322 LZ-W : Firefighting/Water Supply Platoons (25 men each)

(almost 2000 units for firefighting, rescue and clearing/broaching, fielded by firefighters throughout Germany and THW)

Medical Assets (total 29,358 men):

• 401 SZ : Medical Platoons (50 men each)
• 174 SZ-A : Triage Platoons (28 men each)
• 115 SZ-T : Medical Transport Platoons (28 men each)
• 76 VZ : Veterinary Platoons (16 men each)

(fielded by the various medical organizations - German Red Cross (DRK), St. John's Accidence Assistance (JUH), Worker Samaritan Union (ASB), Maltese Assistance Service (MHD) and German Lifesaving Society (DLRG))

NBC Defence (total 14,906 men):

• 245 ABCZ : NBC Platoons (42 men each)
• 329 AMASt : NBC Analysis Squads (8 men each)
• 496 BAMSt : NBC Observation Troops (4 men each)

(NBC platoons hold 8-man NBC recce squad and one personnel and equipment decon squad each)

Support Service (total 6,016 men):

• 106 BtLtZ : Support/Command Platoon (32 men each)
• 77 BtZ : Support Platoon (28 men each)
• 26 BtSt : Stationary Support Center (18 men each)

(supports civilian population migration away from the fronts and helps such people with finding accomodation etc)

Supply/Support (total 25,127 men):

• 252 IZ : Maintenance Platoons (35 men each)
• 145 FmZ : Signals Platoon (25 men each)
• 396 FmZt : Signals Center Type A/B/C (12/12/19 men each)
• 784 VpflTr : Provisions Troop (5 men each)
• 417 VGTr : General Supply Troop (4 men each)
• 573 MatETr : Stock Maintenance Troop (3 men each)

(most of these fielded by THW only)

Outside the above standardized units, the THW also holds specialized units ready (total 3,198 men):

• 33 Bridgebuilding Platoons (36 men each)
• 65 Ponton Bridge Platoons (24 men each)
• 32 Emergency Power/Water Supply Squads (12 men each)
• 1 Rapid Reaction Rescue Force (66 men)

(the Rapid Reaction Force is for supporting other countries in e.g. earthquakes and comparable natural disasters)

In addition there were stationary assets for wartime use that were administered by - usually - local districts or municipalities. These included:

• some 200 auxiliary hospitals
• civil protection medical depots
• public bunkers
• gasoline depots
• provisions depots
• emergency wells for drinking water

Warning Service:

• 10 Warning Agencies
• 40 Analysis Command Centers
• 1560 Sensor Stations (most unmanned)
• 4 NATO SOC liaison units

(BAMSt and AMASt in above NBC Defence section tied into network as well)

[kato]

kato, is there any way to find any TO&E for units that used confiscated civilian tech - engineers, logistics, medics(?)

I currently have the full ToE for the Civil Protection units in front of me (official OrBat and ToE of all expanded disaster protection troops in Germany, 1989, from the Federal Agency for Civil Protection). These units used plenty of confiscated civilian tech as well.

Since posting it all would be a bit too exhaustive, here's a sample listing for a single District Defense Command, DDC 522 (Rhine-Neckar), consisting of four districts with a total population of 1,025,000 in 1989:

-----------

• Rhine-Neckar District (pop 467,000) [30/135/445 -> 610 men]
  • command center:
    • composition: TEL, FmZt HVB (12), AMASt, BAMSt
    • strength: 8/4/22 -> 34 men
    • vehicles present: 1 command truck
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 2 cars, 1 motorcycle
  • firefighting, rescue & recovery:
    • composition: 3 LZ-R, 2 LZ-W, 5 BZ-38 (10 platoons)
    • strength: 10/70/235 -> 315 men
    • vehicles present: 10 firefighting trucks, 3 rescue trucks, 10 personnel transport trucks, 5 equipment transport truck, 5 trailers, 5 boats
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 10 vans, 10 motorcycles, 12 trucks (5-ton)
  • NBC Defense & Maintenance:
    • composition: ABCZ, IZ (2 platoons)
    • strength: 2/17/58 -> 77 men
    • vehicles present: 2 NBC reconnaissance vans, 1 decontamination truck, 5 light trucks
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 5 vans, 1 motorcycle, 5 trucks (4 5-ton, 1 light), 4 trailers
  • Medical:
    • composition: 2 SZ, SZ-T, SZ-A (4 platoons)
    • strength: 10/38/108 -> 156 men
    • vehicles present: 4 vans, 6 medical trucks, 13 medevac trucks
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 9 vans, 4 motorcycles, 3 light trucks
  • Supply:
    • composition: 3 VpflTr, VGTr, 2 MatETr
    • strength: 0/6/22 -> 28 men
    • vehicles present: 3 field kitchen trailers
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 8 vans, 5 trucks (4-ton)
• Neckar-Odenwald District (pop 129,000) [12/44/144 -> 200 men]
  • command center:
    • composition: TEL, FmZt HVB (12), AMASt, BAMSt
    • strength: 8/4/22 -> 34 men
    • vehicles present: 1 command truck
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 2 cars, 1 motorcycle
  • firefighting, rescue & recovery:
    • composition: 2 BZ-38 (2 platoons)
    • strength: 2/20/54 -> 76 men
    • vehicles present: 4 personnel transport trucks, 2 equipment transport truck, 2 trailers, 2 boats
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 2 vans, 2 motorcycles, 4 trucks (5-ton)
  • NBC Defense & Maintenance/Rebuilding:
    • composition: ABCZ, IZ (2 platoons)
    • strength: 2/17/58 -> 77 men
    • vehicles present: 2 NBC reconnaissance vans, 1 decontamination truck, 5 light trucks
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 5 vans, 1 motorcycle, 5 trucks (4 5-ton, 1 light), 4 trailers
  • Supply:
    • composition: VpflTr, VGTr, MatETr
    • strength: 0/3/10 -> 13 men
    • vehicles present: 1 field kitchen trailer
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 3 vans, 3 trucks (4-ton)
• City of Heidelberg (pop 134,000) [21/77/268 -> 366 men]
  • command center:
    • composition: TEL, FmZt HVB (19), AMASt, BAMSt
    • strength: 8/5/28 -> 41 men
    • vehicles present: 1 command truck
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 2 cars, 1 motorcycle, 1 1.5-ton truck
  • firefighting, rescue & recovery:
    • composition: 2 LZ-R, 1 LZ-W, 2 BZ-38 (5 platoons)
    • strength: 5/32/114 -> 151 men
    • vehicles present: 6 firefighting trucks, 2 rescue trucks, 4 personnel transport trucks, 2 equipment transport truck, 2 trailers, 2 boats
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 5 vans, 5 motorcycles, 5 trucks (5-ton)
  • NBC Defense & Maintenance/Rebuilding:
    • composition: ABCZ, IZ (2 platoons)
    • strength: 2/17/58 -> 77 men
    • vehicles present: 2 NBC reconnaissance vans, 1 decontamination truck, 5 light trucks
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 5 vans, 1 motorcycle, 5 trucks (4 5-ton, 1 light), 4 trailers
  • Medical:
    • composition: SZ, SZ-A (2 platoons)
    • strength: 6/19/53 -> 78 men
    • vehicles present: 2 vans, 4 medical trucks, 5 medevac trucks
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 4 vans, 2 motorcycles, 2 light trucks
  • Supply:
    • composition: 2 VpflTr, VGTr, MatETr
    • strength: 0/4/15 -> 19 men
    • vehicles present: 1 field kitchen trailer
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 5 vans, 4 truck (4-ton)
• City of Mannheim (pop 295,000) [31/136/470 -> 637 men]
  • command center:
    • composition: TEL, FmZt HVB (19), AMASt, BAMSt
    • strength: 8/5/28 -> 41 men
    • vehicles present: 1 command truck
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 2 cars, 1 motorcycle, 1 1.5-ton truck
  • firefighting, rescue & recovery:
    • composition: 4 LZ-R, 3 LZ-W, 3 BZ-38, 1 BZ-50 (11 platoons)
    • strength: 11/71/257 -> 339 men
    • vehicles present: 14 firefighting trucks, 4 rescue trucks, 8 personnel transport trucks, 4 equipment transport truck, 4 trailers, 4 boats, 1 digger
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 12 vans, 11 motorcycles, 12 trucks (5-ton), 1 digger
  • NBC Defense & Maintenance/Rebuilding:
    • composition: ABCZ, IZ (2 platoons)
    • strength: 2/17/58 -> 77 men
    • vehicles present: 2 NBC reconnaissance vans, 1 decontamination truck, 5 light trucks
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 5 vans, 1 motorcycle, 5 trucks (4 5-ton, 1 light), 4 trailers
  • Medical:
    • composition: 2 SZ, SZ-T, SZ-A (4 platoons)
    • strength: 10/38/108 -> 156 men
    • vehicles present: 4 vans, 6 medical trucks, 13 medevac trucks
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 9 vans, 4 motorcycles, 3 light trucks
  • Supply:
    • composition: 3 VpflTr, 2 MatETr
    • strength: 0/5/19 -> 24 men
    • vehicles present: 3 field kitchen trailers
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 8 vans, 3 trucks (4-ton)
• mobile command (extra/singular units) [10/29/76 -> 115 men]
  • mobile command center
    • composition: TEL, FmZ, BAMSt
    • strength: 7/6/26 -> 39 men
    • vehicles present: 1 command truck, 5 signals trucks
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 2 cars, 1 van, 1 motorcycle, 1 trailer
    • note: fully mobile command center that can be deployed throughout the district.
  • veterinary service
    • composition: VZ (1 platoon)
    • strength: 1/4/11 -> 16 men
    • vehicles present: (none)
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 1 van, 1 motorcycle, 4 trucks (1x 1.5-ton, 3x 4-ton)
    • note: mostly tasked with shooting injured animals.
  • population support service
    • composition: BtZ, 2 BtLtZ (3 platoons)
    • strength: 2/19/39 -> 60 men
    • vehicles present: 2 vans, 6 motorcycles, 3 field kitchen trailers, 1 truck (4-ton)
    • vehicles to be confiscated: 9 vans, 43 motorcycles, 2 trucks (4-ton)
    • note: think of them as a biker patrol unit that steers fleeing civilians from the frontlines through the district.

-----------

In addition, there was a single auxiliary hospital in the district, located in the rural east.

-----------

Total number of general vehicles present (40 vehicles -> about 7.5% of total):
- 12 vans
- 6 motorcycles
- 21 trucks (1x 4-ton, 20x light)
- 1 digger

Specialized vehicles present (147 vehicles, 21 trailers, 13 boats -> about 34% of total):
- 8 NBC recon vans
- 4 decontamination trucks
- 5 command trucks (light)
- 5 signals trucks
- 16 medical trucks (transportation & treatment of wounded)
- 31 medevac trucks (transportation of wounded)
- 30 firefighting trucks
- 9 rescue trucks (firefighter equipment truck, also "APC" for rescue squad)
- 26 personnel transport trucks ("APCs" for a rescue squad each)
- 13 equipment transport trucks (rescue squad support equipment)
- 13 small boats on specialized trailers
- 8 field kitchen trailers

Total number of general vehicles to be confiscated (291 vehicles, 17 trailers -> about 58.5% of total):
- 10 cars
- 106 vans
- 91 motorcycles
- 83 trucks (45x 5-ton, 23x 4-ton, 15x light/1.5-ton)
- 1 digger
- 17 trailers

Total number of vehicles after mobilization:
- 97 motorcycles
- 171 cars, vans and light trucks
- 69 general medium trucks (4-ton/5-ton)
- 139 specially equipped trucks
- 38 trailers
- 2 diggers
- 13 boats

(note: "truck" in the above = vehicle above 3.75 tons GVW; "light truck" and "van" = vehicle above 2 tons GVW; most specialized trucks mounted on frames for 4-ton/5-ton payload trucks, i.e. around 9-14 tons GVW)

Total strength of manpower involved:
104 officer equivalent
421 non-commissioned officer equivalent
1,403 enlisted equivalent
-> 1,928 men total

[Albany Rifles]

Kato,

2 questions regarding the Polizei.

In our GDP position we had 3 teams of 2 men each from the local Polizei who were attached to our battalion task force. They were there to assist with civilian population issues, refugee control, etc. They were to stay with us for the duration and were released only when we pulled back. My question is was this normal practice throughout West Germany or did get this support since we were, in reality, the 3rd brigade for 12th Panzer Division under the US VIIth Corps?

Would the Polizei in West Berlin have operated as light infantry in case of hostilities since the Bundeswehr was forbidden to post forces there?

I would appreciate your thoughts.

[kato]

The Berlin police, like all other police forces in Germany, did not have combattant status - at its own insistence, police officers refused to become just soldiers (there was an attempt to give police combattant status in 1963, refused by police forces). In Berlin reserve forces of the police were intended to reinforce regular police in times of tension, e.g. in protecting certain vital sites against sabotage.
Both Berlin and several West-German states had reserve police forces (of one or more brigades in size each) that were equipped with machine guns, automatic rifles, anti-tank rifle grenades, hand grenades and light/medium mortars, in particular in the 50s and 60s. The federal border guard was equipped similarly, and additionally had APCs and fire support vehicles (e.g. Saladins). This pseudo-infantry role for the police was for the most part abandoned in the mid to late 70s, and by the 80s the heavy weaponry was centralized in depots and no longer trained on (some states still keep it today, just in case).

As for the police with your unit, probably just a liaison command connecting you to local authorities for peacetime maneuver purposes. In the Bundeswehr the District Defense Commands served this purpose, connecting the units active within their AoR with civilian authorities.
Police in wartime was involved on the civil protection side, with a liaison command usually with the "HVB" command center that each district in Germany fielded. Civilian and military sides would have been fiercely divided in wartime, to the point that there were civil protection units tasked completely separate from the military with observing any ground warfare in their AoR in order to coordinate civil protection.

[kato]

One P.S. to the above posts on civil protection:

The units laid out there are only the wartime reserve that was financed by the federal government. It eclipsed in 1989 at 72% of its planned strength of 200,000. In addition there were state-financed units - e.g. the regular firefighters in each town - that encompassed 400,000 men and basically were the peacetime disaster protection forces. Peacetime and reserve troops together comprised the Expanded Disaster Protection with a strength of 1% of the German population.

The organization of the wartime reserve went along the lines of the Rhine-Neckar example presented above; each district - state and country - had its own local command center usually sitting in a bunker or protected underground area somewhere, as well as several units for operations in their AoR dependent on size, population and structure.

[Albany Rifles]

Thanks...that clears up a lot for me.

[zraver]

In the US due to posse comitatus most federal troops have no role in civil protection in a disaster even a terrorist incident. There are a few exceptions such as guarding federal property, the Army Corps of Engineers and certain specialist troops. Most military assets will be provided from the state national guard rolls. However the National Responce Framework (NRF) and National Incident Management System (NIMS) operating under FEMA and DHS can through either state request or when certain federal issues present mobalize significant firepower to tackle an emergency. If its state activated, the required assets can be called out via the National Governors Association Emergency Aid Compact (EMAC) and if federal assistance has been sought or there is a federal issue through FEMA's Multi-Agency coordination System (MACS).

These two systems are for example how one of the 28 FEMA sponsored type I Urban Search and Rescue task forces (US&R) like the Fairfax county team (VA-TF-1). However the systems can also be used to move national guard troops from one states control to another's such as during Katrina when much of the Louisiana National Guard was over seas and the EMAC's system was used to transfer control of guard troops from several states to Louisiana.

The EMAC/MACS system can also provide emergency licensing and credentialing of assets such as making forest rangers of the US Forest Service or Federal Postal Police state law enforcement assets, or making a deputy sheriff a federal law enforcement asset, or making a state trooper from state X a trooper from state Y. When one considers the number of law enforcement officers both federal and state in any major population area this is some serious firepower in an emergency. Since most medium sized or larger towns and counties have SWAT teams there are literally thousands of heavily armed fire teams in the US. There are also numerous semi-military type specialist groups both federal and state like federal NEST and local bomb squads

The system also covers some semi-government bodies, private contractors, private companies, semi-federal volunteers and private sector volunteers and non-profits if they have a mission that is considered critical to the nation such as Wackenhut's guards of nuclear power stations and chemical plants, HAM radio operators, storm spotters, reserve medical corps, CERT teams or trained search and rescue canine handlers.

NIMS/NRF isn't perfect but it is scalable, provides for mutual and automatic aid and provides a common language for use when responding.