India Vs. China (borderline War)

[Ray]

http://www.rangzen.org/history/views.htm

TIBET: A Brief History

Dragon Attacks 1949-1959
Taking the first step toward what has become 50 years of oppression, China's People's Liberation Army invades Tibet, killing more than 10,000. Repeated attempts by The Dalai Lama to negotiate with China are dismissed. In 1950, the 15-year-old Dalai Lama is forced into full leadership of Tibet, while in 1951 a Tibetan Delegation is forced to sign the 17-Point Agreement, promising "Measures for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet." During 1959, The Dalai Lama went to China to speak with Chairman Mao Zedong. Mao told him, "Religion is poison. ... Tibet and Mongolia have both been poisoned by it." Also during this year, the Chinese retaliate against the Tibetan resistance, killing more than 87,000. On March 17, 1959, The Dalai Lama escapes His sacred homeland, seeking political asylum in India. The Chinese declare martial law as thousands of Tibetan refugees begin pouring into India.

Smash the Four Olds 1958-1976
During Chairman Mao Zedong's "Great Leap Forward," Tibetans suffered through the Tibetan Cultural Revolution experiencing some of the worst human rights abuses ever known, under the slogan "Smash the Four Olds:" old ideas, old culture, old customs and old habits. Before the Chinese occupation, there are 6,000 Tibetan monasteries in Tibet. After the Cultural Revolution, there are six. Hundreds of thousands of Monks, Nuns and civilians are imprisoned or killed for wearing traditional hairstyles and clothing, engaging in traditional song or dance, or voicing their religious beliefs. Rituals such as prostrations, mantras, prayer wheels, circumambulation, throwing tsampa and burning juniper or incense are strictly prohibited. Anything representing the cultural identity of the Tibetan people is eradicated.

Dragon Attacks 1949-1595 | Smash the Four Olds 1958-1976
A Prison State 1950-Present | Environmental Apocalypse 1960-Present

A Prison State 1950-Present
More than 250,000 Tibetans die in prisons and labor camps. Tibetan women are raped, sterilized and forced to have abortions. Children are shut off from Tibetan culture and subjected to beatings by teachers and authority figures. Nun's accounts of their prison experiences indicate they are targeted by the Chinese. They are subjected to extreme methods of torture: Dogs are used to bite them; their faces and torsos are burned with cigarettes; and electric batons are used on their genitals. Tibetan refugee children report that teachers and other authority figures subject them to beatings using rubber clubs, whips, belts, chairs, electric wires and other instruments.

Environmental Apocalypse 1960s-Present
China has inflicted severe damage to Tibetºs environment: Toxic waste is dumped into rivers; forests are clear-cut; endangered species are hunted for sport; and nuclear-testing facilities are built. Hundreds of thousands of Tibetans die from famine and disease. The Chinese begin building facilities for the development of nuclear weapons and begin nuclear testing in the Tibetan plateau. In just 30 years, 25 percent of Tibet's forests are clear-cut, putting $54 billion into Chinese pockets. In the 1980s, this rapid deforestation causes 5 billion tons of soil to be lost to erosion every year, making the Yellow River flood. China currently has at least 300 to 400 nuclear warheads, many of which are in the Tibetan plateau. China declares in 1991 the "Year of Tibet" and begins bulldozing historic Tibetan buildings and homes in the Barkhor, the central square of Lhasa, Tibet's capital.

[Ray]

In short, history remains to be the perspective that one wants to view it from!

Every country has its own perspective to suit its requirements.

[667medic]

In short, history remains to be the perspective that one wants to view it from!

Every country has its own perspective to suit its requirements.

The stance of both the countries is irritating. India should stop playing the backstabbed underdog and also strictly tell China to stuff its moralistic preachings

[Ray]

Actually, they are playing a great game of deception together.

[667medic]

Actually, they are playing a great game of deception together.

Fortunately Sir, the majority of the public still considers pakistan to be our enemy. Thus any so called deal with pakistan would be under strict public scrutiny. I believe not so for China ....

[percentage_plyr]

Chop Chop,

This forum is a serious forum where intelligent interaction occurs, even if divergent in views.

Juvenile comments and rantings do jar and bring the standard of the forum to disrepute.

May I request you to bone up on the issue that you wish to project, rather than be at sixes and sevens and end up being the star attraction of Barnum and Bailey?

lolol......so british!

[pin_qinghai]

Dear Ray,

Happy new year !

If possible, could you put your dissertation "Communism a Threat to India" online and I would like to have the honor of studying it. Thanks.

I have tremendous respect to you, OOE, zraver, 667medic and all Military Professionals. I also have tremendous respect to gunnut, astralis, Jay and all Senior Contributors. Arguing with this group of people, I feel a little bit impolite and offensive. Chinese people do respect betters.

I would like to ask your forgiveness if I argue with you about Sino-India war and China/Tibet issues.

First, I think that the Sino-India war is a separate issue from the China/Tibet history. Second, Tibet is part of China and Chinese brought great progress to the Tibet society economically, socially and politically.

The life of most Tibetan has been improved greatly. Of course, those Masters of the Serfs and radical religious persons would not like to see this happen.

Before 1950, the Tibet was a theocratic society that still exercises Serfs and Masters social system. I am not sure if there are any other places on the earth to practice this very inhuman and brutal system by Law in 20th century. In early 1950s, China did not want to weak the stability of Tibet overnight and did not make sudden change on this system. It made gradual change until 1959. In 1959, China required to stop all Serfs and Masters Practices and then the Masters and Lamas started uprising.

When a British trained chief military officer wanted to do some reform in Tibetan army, he offended some Lamas and got a sentence of taking both of his eye balls out. I can not even explain the brutality here. Take out eye balls, cut nose, cut ear, cut hand or arm, cut feet or lag were the Tibet Laws before 1950 for many offenses. Ask Dalai Lama to see if he can deny these charges I made here.

Before 1950, the Tibet law clearly stated that people are not equal. If a high class people hurt a low class people, he only needs to pay the medicine to treat that low class people. If a low class people hurt a high class people, his hand or arm may be cut as a punishment. The law says the life of lowest people worth a piece of rope, the life of the highest people worth the gold of his weight. I am not sure if this is similar to the India's Caste System.

Those Tibetans in exile and radical lamas want to describe Tibet before 1950 as paradise; I would like to challenge them. It may be paradise for the Lamas and Masters, but it was hell on the earth for most Tibetans.

I hope that some Tibetans in exile or some radical Lamas who may look through this forum dare to come out to deny the charges I made here. I really want to make some argument with them.

Thos propaganda of huge number of Tibetan died, raped or whatever are totally lies. Because they lied too many times for too long, people do not care about them any more. One or two Tibetan were shot have become a huge event. How can hundred of thousands people died or raped without any proof. In fact, although several prestige anti-China human right organizations accused China for not enough religious freedom for those radical lamas, but no of them accused China for massive death and rape.

For the family planning, Tibetan enjoys privilege. In China, if both parents are Han Chinese, they can have only one kid. If one parent is minority, they can have two kids. If both parents are minority, they can have 3 kids. Today, the limit has been loosing for all people because not many people in city want to have more kids.

I was born and grew up in Qinghai province, which is considered by Dalai Lama to be part of his great Tibet. I know what happens in Tibet.


BTW, the record of India’s treating its minorities is quite questionable. Even at the height of Sino-India confrontation, India sill needed to divert substantial military force to suppress the uprising of its minorities.

[Draconion]

BTW, the record of India’s treating its minorities is quite questionable. Even at the height of Sino-India confrontation, India sill needed to divert substantial military force to suppress the uprising of its minorities.

Yup...They call themselves minorities...

The second largest Muslim population in the world.

A sizeably Christian population.(Ask lemontree wether he's been ever mistreated, or Samudra)

Or even ask Tronic(hes a sikh I believe)

Our President is a Muslim, whom everybody respects and admires...our Prime minister is a Sikh(thats only 1-2% of the population)

The country in reality is run by a catholic Italian...I mean how much more liberal people do you want?

Dont speak BS...dont speak at all if you dont know something...but dont speak BS...

[667medic]

AFA Tibet is concerned, both sides reneged after 1959. Chinese failed on the promise they made to Nehru and Nehru on his part either ignored or even assisted the insurgency in Tibet.....

[Draconion]

For the family planning, Tibetan enjoys privilege. In China, if both parents are Han Chinese, they can have only one kid. If one parent is minority, they can have two kids. If both parents are minority, they can have 3 kids. Today, the limit has been loosing for all people because not many people in city want to have more kids.

YIPEEE....They are allowed three children...I am sure they are dancing wildly in thier lil tibetian huts butt naked freezing themselves to death.

[sarcasm]What freedom you'll enjoy...I mean the govt is allowing you Three...****...Three...(are you sure they said three...i mean thats too much...)...!!!Three....[/sarcasm]

In India, people can(and some do) have more children than the number of lil pups most *****es produce....thats freedom...just have a look at our quasi-illiterate, wannabe-simpleton jackass Laloo Prasad..the bastard has 9 children..and has singlehandely spoiled the entire economy of an entire state...thats freedom...

*Sniff*

I Salute the Great Indian Democracy...;)

[pin_qinghai]

667medic:
BG Ray has already answered as to why the three authors are not credible. So please shove your moralist preachings in some other place.
If you want a better account of why China attacked India read this by Garver, a well respected Sinologist....

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~johnston/garver.pdf

Dear 667medic,

Happy new year !

Have you ever read this John Garver’s article that you recommended to me? I read it and liked it very much. It proved that my moralist preaching (China's view) written in #160 is correct. You are more than welcome to present your India's view.

John Garver’s article gives China the moral superiority in the Sino-India 1962 war.

John Garver’s article is even more pro-China than Neville Maxwell and James Barnard’s stuffs. In fact, I should say, John Garver is pro-China, and Neville Maxwell and James Barnard are anti-India to the issues about Sino-India border conflict.

The biggest difference is that John Garver wrote about Sino-India 1962 war from China side. He described the Chinese decision making process. While, Neville Maxwell and James Barnard did not have so much Chinese side information at that time and only described Indian decision making process. John Garver did not tough the historic roots of the border disputes. He added one argument that China mistakenly thought that India wanted to take Tibet from China or let Tibet go back to it status in 1949. He assumed that misunderstanding helped China to make the decision of striking back.

He also put Dhola Post (多拉哨所) and Thagla Ridge (塔格拉山脊) confrontation as the key event to start the war.

According to his writing, China had made great effort to avoid the war until the last minute (10/06/1962). India’s offense of attacking Thagla Ridge (塔格拉山脊) had started at 09/1962, but failed. Then, China striked back on 10/20/1962. Although, China considered letting India to go into Chinese territory a little bit further. But winter was coming and they could not wait any more.

Some interesting writings of John Garver’s article are:

[page 33] Thus, Chinese forces were ordered to withdraw 20 kilometers from what China felt was the line of actual control, and to cease patrolling in that forward zone. --- to avoid confrontation

[page 34] when Indian forces initially began implementing Forward Policy, Chinese forces withdrew when they encountered the newly advanced Indian outputs.

[page 35] 02/26/1962 Beijing delivered a lengthy and conciliatory sounding note to India. 03/13/1962 India replied. It reiterates India’s standard position that Chinese withdrawal from Aksai Chin was an essential precondition for negotiations.

[page 36] (after 03/1962) the CMC (Central Military Commission) decided that PLA absolutely should not retreat before Indian advances. By then, China resume patrol suspended since October 1959. Accelerated construction of roads to forward areas.

[page 41] 07/23/1962 in Geneva, India foreign minister Menon was very rude to Chinese foreign minister Chen Yi and refused any discussion on the border dispute.

[page 47] by 10/6/1962, Ten Chinese personnel had been killed or wounded, but Chinese force had strictly followed the principle of not firing the first shot.

[page 50] Ye Jianying tell his impression of General Kaul to Mao, no combat experience, rigid, impressive looking soldier, one of India’s most outstanding commanders. “Fine,” Mao interjected, “he’ll have another opportunity to shine.”

[page 51] 10/06/1962, India rejected a Chinese proposal of 10/03/1962 to start a peaceful negotiation to settle the border issue. ---- India lost its last chance to avoid the war

[page 51] 10/06/1962, Mao and CMC decided in principle for a large scale attack to severely punish India.

[page 51] 10/06/1962, the CMC staff was then directed to draw up a detailed operational plan *** .

[Inst]

"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush

Lawlt.

Just one question. What advantages would China have gained if it could further press its advantages in the Sino-Indian war? The supply failure story only makes sense if China had further targets.

[Officer of Engineers]

The supply failure story only makes sense if China had further targets.

It also meant that they can't hold onto their gains.

[pin_qinghai]

YIPEEE....They are allowed three children...I am sure they are dancing wildly in thier lil tibetian huts butt naked freezing themselves to death.

[sarcasm]What freedom you'll enjoy...I mean the govt is allowing you Three...****...Three...(are you sure they said three...i mean thats too much...)...!!!Three....[/sarcasm]

In India, people can(and some do) have more children than the number of lil pups most *****es produce....thats freedom...just have a look at our quasi-illiterate, wannabe-simpleton jackass Laloo Prasad..the bastard has 9 children..and has singlehandely spoiled the entire economy of an entire state...thats freedom...

*Sniff*

I Salute the Great Indian Democracy...;)

Dear Draconion

Happy New Year !

Are you writing Indian-English? It is hard for me to understand your comments.

I hope that you can understand my Chinese-English.

I Salute the Great Indian Democracy too ...... wait a minute, not Today’s Indian Premature Democracy, more than 40% women’s illiterate rate and children’s malnutrition rate I thought that the Great Indian Democracy got to do something better than that ;) Do you agree with me? Oh, yes, they can have more babies and vote

Please go to read the first comment in the China’s democratization and reunification. In that comment, I suggested that China should learn from Great Indian Democracy.

Apparently, you still got lot to learn. You know your country’s recent history even less than me. The minority I talked about in my comment is not Muslim. Could other Indians give him a lesson on recent Indian history? I don’t want to teach you your country’s history.

[pin_qinghai]

"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush

Lawlt.

Just one question. What advantages would China have gained if it could further press its advantages in the Sino-Indian war? The supply failure story only makes sense if China had further targets.

Dear Inst,

You should read more comments in this thread before. They blame China for the border conflict and accuse that “China back stabling India. We don't want to be accused for something that we didn't do.