Israel: Strategic Asset or Strategic Liability?

[HistoricalDavid]

Apparently Mr David doubts whether an average guy from Seville has a better grip of some realities of Moroccan society than an average guy from Glasgow. Why does he conclude that Glasgowians cannot make excellent and accomplished Arabists and Magreb scholars? I don't know.

Mr Castellano apparently wouldn't know sarcasm if it bit him on the arse (unless, perhaps, it said 'Allahu Akbar' and dared to wave a Qur'an").

He later confirms ignorance as the source of his temerity with his stinky accusation of racism. I mean, one has to be very sure to say something like that.

If you don't want to be accused of racism, then don't say retarded things like being close to Muslims endows you with greater authority, as if they emit some sort of evil forcefield.

I just want to say that what he passes as "evidence" is the thread is no such thing. This "evidence" apparently demonstrates a closer alliance of the US with Estonia than with Israel.

Estonia's admittedly an extreme example (which I personally haven't mentioned) but what the hell's your problem with South Korea? It, like Israel, is a relatively free and democratic country, and faces North Korea; and comparing the:

- massed artillery just north of the DMZ
- drug and counterfeiting involvement, directly affecting US interests
- chemical weaponry, ballistic missiles
- million-man army, most of it just north of the DMZ
- refugee problem
- possible nuclear weapons capability
- utter depraved communist poverty and totalitarianism foisted upon NK's 22 million people, probably making it the world's most oppressive state
- threat of said things to considerable US business interests in SK and Japan

...versus the threat Israel currently deals with - Palestinian amateur rocketry clubs, suicide bombers and rock-throwers, so stop invoking the memory of '48, '67, '73, '81, '82 etc - then how is South Korea's considerably smaller aid package such a bugbear for you?

Yes, I know Hamas wants to destroy Israel. So does NK threaten to destroy SK's way of life. But if two people want to kill the king, one with a rock and one with a Barret M82, who are you going to pay attention to?

Why is Israel so unique?

[Oscar]

Why is Israel so unique?

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=49067

[Castellano]

Mr Castellano apparently wouldn't know sarcasm if it bit him on the arse (unless, perhaps, it said 'Allahu Akbar' and dared to wave a Qur'an").



If you don't want to be accused of racism, then don't say retarded things like being close to Muslims endows you with greater authority, as if they emit some sort of evil forcefield.

Listen, Ignorant, you do not understand almost anything of what I say, nor do you really understand the issues. Actually, if I'm not wrong this deficient comprehension is down to your own prejudices, which you of course accuse others. I won't go further because I'll be doing you a favor which I don't want to.

Are you gonna keep whining or are you gonna debate the issues?

Estonia's admittedly an extreme example (which I personally haven't mentioned) but what the hell's your problem with South Korea? It, like Israel, is a relatively free and democratic country, and faces North Korea; and comparing the:

- massed artillery just north of the DMZ
- drug and counterfeiting involvement, directly affecting US interests
- chemical weaponry, ballistic missiles
- million-man army, most of it just north of the DMZ
- refugee problem
- possible nuclear weapons capability
- utter depraved communist poverty and totalitarianism foisted upon NK's 22 million people, probably making it the world's most oppressive state
- threat of said things to considerable US business interests in SK and Japan

...versus the threat Israel currently deals with - Palestinian amateur rocketry clubs, suicide bombers and rock-throwers, so stop invoking the memory of '48, '67, '73, '81, '82 etc - then how is South Korea's considerably smaller aid package such a bugbear for you?

Yes, I know Hamas wants to destroy Israel. So does NK threaten to destroy SK's way of life. But if two people want to kill the king, one with a rock and one with a Barret M82, who are you going to pay attention to?

Why is Israel so unique?

Israel is not unique, rather it is unfairly singled out. And I get pissed off when there are double standards.

In this case I pointed out to the comparison with South Korea, but find me my problem with SK, Genius.

Don't make up what I say. I don't dare pronounce myself about SK because I don't really know the issue. Of course betwen SK and NK is not a difficult choice.

What I do instead is for example read OoE and others great comments in the WAB, to understand a bit more; it seems a good thing for the US to support it militarily too, as far as I can tell.

It is totally false to say that the aid to SK is "smaller" than that for Israel, for not only accounts for about the same amount of dollars and for longer time, those dollars are spent in the Israeli aid in a way far more advantageous for the US citizen than in the case of SK. Get you facts right.

However this is not my issue. My issue is that it is insane that I find 100 references to US aid to Israel and not a single one to SK.

[troung]

However this is not my issue. My issue is that it is insane that I find 100 references to US aid to Israel and not a single one to SK.

South Korea has put troops in harms way alongside America.

[Castellano]

I would say the US has put itself in harms way for South Korea. A sign of a burden, which might well be completely justified, but a burden it is.

And it is absurd to claim since there are 50000 US troops or whatever the numer is in the DMZ, therefore, South Korea is a better or closer ally. It is objectively the other way around tactically, and perhaps I'm biased, but I sincerely think also strategically. Anyway, both are allies.

[troung]

I would say the US has put itself in harms way for South Korea. A sign of a burden, which might well be completely justified, but a burden it is.

South Korean troops served in the 2nd Indochina War and OIF. Israel comes up short compared with Thailand as well.

Israel has sold our technology to our enemies and ruined our image in the Muslim World all for the low price of billions a year.

[GraniteForge]

Israel is not unique, rather it is unfairly singled out. And I get pissed off when there are double standards.

In this case I pointed out to the comparison with South Korea, but find me my problem with SK, Genius.

Don't make up what I say. I don't dare pronounce myself about SK because I don't really know the issue. Of course betwen SK and NK is not a difficult choice.

It is totally false to say that the aid to SK is "smaller" than that for Israel, for not only accounts for about the same amount of dollars and for longer time, those dollars are spent in the Israeli aid in a way far more advantageous for the US citizen than in the case of SK. Get you facts right.

However this is not my issue. My issue is that it is insane that I find 100 references to US aid to Israel and not a single one to SK.

The US is still at war with North Korea. The defensive line the US is holding happens to be in South Korea. That is the primary reason for US aid to South Korea: it is actually being spent in direct support of US military operations.

Beyond that, South Korea has always been an extremely strong US ally.

South Korea exists completely in the shadow of their powerful and rapacious Northern neighbor, and it would be completely reasonable for the South Koreans to decide that they need every single soldier and every single cent on the line to defend their country. But when the US asks for assistance, South Korea does not hesitate. In numbers large and small, on land and on the sea, when the US asks, South Korea responds, and they are willing to incrementally reduce their own security to do it. That is what a real ally does, and that is why you don't see much complaining about assistance for South Korea: Simply, they earn it.

Israel, on the other hand, is a parasite.

There is your double standard: That a self-serving parasite is showered with money, while US and Allied combat operations sometimes go lacking. Lest you misunderstand my point, let me state it explicitly: The massive, undeserved aid given to Israel costs US lives.

[Johnny W]

I have no doubt that Israel would send troops to assist the US if they were asked. Due to political considerations, we don't ask them.

And its wrong imo to say that the relatively miniscule amount that Israel gets in assistance from the US somehow negatively impacts the US armed forces. There is no evidence whatsoever to support that supposition. The total annual cost of support to Israel is 3.2 billion, which is a drop in the bucket irt the US budget. And that aid was agreed to as part of the Camp David peace accords that have brought a lasting peace between Israel and Egypt. IMO (along with most of the experts on the region) the aid given to both is a small price to pay for that peace.

And fwiw, South Korea has a modern military force, that is better equipped and trained than its northern neighbor. South Korea is in far better shape than it was in 1950, and could probably defend itself. The reason there are US troops in SK is that the North Koreans might be tempted to attack if they only had to deal with SK, but they know if they launch an attack, they will be dealing with the US. The US forces are a tripwire.

[HistoricalDavid]

Listen, Ignorant, you do not understand almost anything of what I say, nor do you really understand the issues. Actually, if I'm not wrong this deficient comprehension is down to your own prejudices, which you of course accuse others. I won't go further because I'll be doing you a favor which I don't want to.

Are you gonna keep whining or are you gonna debate the issues?

I'm not whining, I'm taking the piss out of you.

MOOOOZLIM FORCEFIELD across the Strait of Gibraltar... ACTIVATE! *Transformers theme tune*

Israel is not unique, rather it is unfairly singled out. And I get pissed off when there are double standards.

Double standards from whom? Cry me a river. Over the great span of WAB at least I personally comment on China, NK/SK, Russia and so on as much as I do on Israel.

But how about double standards from you if you're so much into ad hominem arguments? I hear a lot more defence of six million Israelis from amateur rocketry than I do of 47 million SK chaps (hell, even 120 million Japanese) from NK SRBMs, nukes, chemical weapons, etc, or 22 million Taiwanese from the might of China. And that's just the Far East.

In this case I pointed out to the comparison with South Korea, but find me my problem with SK, Genius.

You obviously consider it a less viable case for aid than Israel.

Don't make up what I say. I don't dare pronounce myself about SK because I don't really know the issue.

You implicitly did, obviously, by saying "Why no complaints about SK aid..." I showed you why SK aid is a better idea and now you say "waaaah I didn't talk about SK..."

What I do instead is for example read OoE and others great comments in the WAB, to understand a bit more; it seems a good thing for the US to support it militarily too, as far as I can tell.

The majority of OoE's contributions in these threads consist of pointing out the uncomfortable about Israel. He's the one who said Israel's civilian losses did not give carte blanche to the IDF to do what they did in Gaza, he's the one who says Israel the US's most dangerous ally... He doesn't say the aid should stop, and that's not the thread title.

In any case, it's a bit disingenuous to paint yourself as all modest and humble in appealing to these authorities, when the specific authority you mention is mostly batting for the other side.

*Keeps bottle of scotch at side*

It is totally false to say that the aid to SK is "smaller" than that for Israel, for not only accounts for about the same amount of dollars and for longer time, those dollars are spent in the Israeli aid in a way far more advantageous for the US citizen than in the case of SK. Get you facts right.

South Korea is a powerhouse Asian Tiger manufacturing economy, especially in cars, shipbuilding and electronics; while it is difficult to quantify, it's hardly an insignificant contribution next to Israel's scientific and technological output, along with its meagre self-satisfying intelligence sharing... with the US, I mean, not with China. That's just something they do on the side. You know, being a good ally n all.

3.2 billion to Israel, how much to SK? Definitely less. The American presence there would certainly help defeat NK but it also forms a link in the Pacific ring of steel against China, arguably.

However this is not my issue. My issue is that it is insane that I find 100 references to US aid to Israel and not a single one to SK.

As I said, cry me a river. Ultimately the issue is the thread title.

Hardly insane, though. South Korean troops and their shenanigans don't really get as much exposure now, do they...

I have no doubt that Israel would send troops to assist the US if they were asked. Due to political considerations, we don't ask them.

Ergo, they are less of a strategic asset.

It's like saying "I'm hung like a horse, and I could do porn, if only I didn't have erectile dysfunction..."

[astralis]

castellano, HD,

please take a break from this thread for a bit- things are getting a bit heated.

[astralis]

johnny,

I have no doubt that Israel would send troops to assist the US if they were asked. Due to political considerations, we don't ask them.

they're not even doing a japan, which is at least giving financial support.

And its wrong imo to say that the relatively miniscule amount that Israel gets in assistance from the US somehow negatively impacts the US armed forces. There is no evidence whatsoever to support that supposition. The total annual cost of support to Israel is 3.2 billion, which is a drop in the bucket irt the US budget. And that aid was agreed to as part of the Camp David peace accords that have brought a lasting peace between Israel and Egypt. IMO (along with most of the experts on the region) the aid given to both is a small price to pay for that peace.

i agree with troung and GF. i really don't see benefit of supporting israel the way we're doing right now. at most, our policy vis-a-vis israel should simply be selling them defensive arms a la taiwan, with even that conditioned upon israel disbanding ALL illegal settlements. israel has had a very troubling way of coming to expect automatic support from the US for its policies- this expectation must be broken if the US is to have any negotiating power or hold over the israelis.