Obama: Pakistan diverting US funds

[The One]

Obama just wants Indian votes in November.I don't think that the US-Pakistan relationship will be halted or suffer because of the need to win the war on terror in Afghanistan.Afghanistan is the key to stopping Al Qaeda from reorganising and establishing its base there once more.Pakistan's tribal territory has to be sanitised from the Taliban of all types and the US and NATO forces can do so only with Pakistan's help.What the US should do is to provide the hard kill from the air,while Pakistan can provide the same from the ground.The type of arms and support should be of such nature that they would be of little use against India.Supplies of F-16s ,AMRAAMs,Orions and attack copters should be cancelled,halted or suspended unless Pakistan complies and acts against the Taliban effectively.Future arms supplies to Pakistan must not be capable of being used against India,otherwise the US will lose India's friendship .Which country is more important to the US in the long term?

You have taken my words.Nothing new in Obama's statement.

[Cactus]

In 2002, the US in no way used any enormous financial carrot to restrain India. It would be interesting to know if there were any worth mention. The opening up of the Indian market is in no way connected to 2002, if it is meant to allude to the Operation Parakrama. The one of the reason why India did not get proactive was because US troops were stationed within Pakistan.

Sir, in 2002 the US had to expend its financial capital in form of financial "stick" when restraining India. It came in many forms, from explicit travel advisories to businessmen traveling to India to more subtle sticks like loss of investor confidence. It also resulted in lost opportunities. The time, prestige, trust and effort which was being wasted pulling Pak's chestnuts out of fire may have been better spent looking after the US's own interests in India. For example, the Indian retail market is still pretty much closed to the US chains - headway could have been made on that if there was more trust on both sides, trust which was wasted.

In 2002, the right wing NDA govt, which was always pro US, facilitated the influx of western companies into the till then restricted Indian market and which the US eagerly grabbed for their own interest. No country acts in as charitable institutions driven by Faith.

By 2002 US companies already had operations and plans for new ventures in India. Of course the US companies were eager to grab further opportunities, its called capitalism. What I said was that these were disrupted by the Indo-Pak crisis, plans delayed and investors shaken ~ partly because the US had to play even-handed even when it was glaringly apparent who was in the wrong and what had to be really done.

The tensions appear to have gone ‘cold’ since neither China nor India wishes to highlight them, but the tensions are quite palpable and subtle. The Chinese assurance to the Indian FM on the US India nuclear deal and the current backtracking is a case in point.

Tensions do not mean open war or open hostility. The issues in Ladakh and NEFA are adequate to understand them and one has to understand China and its philosophy to realise that they are very subtle and surreptitiously and in an underhand manner egg on the adversary while appearing sagacious up front. The way she has the US in its grip is enough to indicate how they have trumped the richest country of the world.

Sir, if China doesn't wish to highlight it and if India doesn't wish to highlight it, then it is completely their business. Both are big boys who can take care of their own. The US cannot worry itself into inaction - possibly fatal inaction - worrying about imponderable unknowns, as Equilibrium is suggesting. Yeah, a butterfly flapping in DC can trigger a cyclone in Asia, so how exactly can the US account for it and what can it really do about it? To make this really simple, the US Govt. has a counter-terror mission; it has to complete it to retain the mandate of its people. Pakistanis are proving an obstacle in completing it, so some action must be taken to cross it.

One could argue as to why is the US getting into this trade deficit? There is method in the madness. Communism has survived on the concept of the benign state and care for its people in all its need. However, that has proved to be a great drain on its exchequer. It cannot bear this benign burden any more. Thus, they have grabbed capitalism as a lifeline, even if couched in beautiful Chinese homilies that disarm! While others may not realise or turn the Nelson’s Eye for selfish reasons, history indicates that the Han has ‘charmed’ other nationalities in their lair, even if they were their rulers! As I have always said, shed supercilious superiority complex when judging the Han. They are sharper, Machiavellian and better than us or any peoples and culture of this world! Don’t take them lightly. They are meek on the outside and they shall inherit this world!

OK, maybe it is so, but what has that got to with the mission on hand? ObL and senior leadership of the AQ and the 'bunnies are still on the loose. Unless this situation is brought to some kind of resolution it will always be a distraction - nay, an exposed flank - to any other policy initiative the Govt of the US takes, be it foreign or domestic.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, it is the 1970s in a new avatar. Let us not get fooled. The US is clear in its global aims and she has the history of discarding her ‘friends’ of non NATO origin as one discards one’s underwears! The US India nuclear deal and the chicanery inbuilt in clever wordings is a case in point for the gullible!

Sir, the US indeed does not limit its aims by geographic boundaries... but it does limit its aims by time-limits and mission-goals (which is not to suggest that there aren't delays and mission-creeps occasionally). It is entirely up to the ally to make what good of the time-limit as it can. Arguably the most successful nations who have gotten a great deal from America's friendship and alliance are two non-NATO countries: Japan and South Korea. When the alliance began both nations were in complete ruins by war (SK had worse situation than India in 1950s by almost any measure); now judge the benefits of the alliance by yourself. Don't blame the US if the Pakistanis don't have the intelligence to make something of their country. If you suspect your countrymen's intelligence, competence and/or patriotism in dealing with the US, please by all means continue debating it independently as you have been doing... don't compound it with cynicism.

Those who understand geopolitics and geostrategy would realise that the US cannot discard Pakistan, even though Pakistan is sorting out the US with a ‘thousand cuts’! Pakistan is the ‘cockpit’ into South Asia and CAR and Xinjiang and more importantly, the womb of Islamic terrorism. Can the US not afford being in Pakistan?

Whoever is talking about discarding Pakistan? Every major US politician is talking about taking greater interest and control in the relationship with Pakistan.

The US has to ensure that China, Russia, India are nowhere in a position to challenge her global superiority (India is no where to do so anyway). She will do everything to ensure that it is what happens. Pakistan will be armed, the euphemistic justification notwithstanding, so that India is weak, she will infuse in China the homage to lucre and combat Russia on ‘Freedom and Democracy’.

Sir, if your end is indeed not a challenge and unlikely to become one, then why worry? HAKUNA MATATA! You really have to fear more from unintended consequences than diabolical machinery. If India were to give its input on things like the need to disarm militant groups and close down arms-bazars, it would be much better received if it was spoken frankly... instead of making veiled-allusions to hypothetical grand strategies. More Indian soldiers have been killed by small-arms from those Frontier arms-bazars than by all the US and Chinese supplied heavy-weaponry to Pakistan over last 60 years. The Russians and the Chinese are more than capable of taking care of themselves, without you worrying for them.

[Ray]

The travel advisories or loss of investor confidence makes no difference when one must understand that there are other countries which too are keen on the vast Indian market. It is time to be like China. They don’t care a damn about any country and instead organises everything on their own terms. Even for non strategic issues they are not perturbed about what the world opinion about them is – the way the just brushed off all criticism about the Olympic and instead showcased an extravaganza that left the world gaping and gasping. It is time to take a leaf off them.

The unfortunate part is that one feels India has arrived, just because the urban middle class finds the globalisation and liberalisation a great change befalling India. There is no doubt that it has improved the living standards, but then the vast majority of India that is out in the rural areas. If there is a lopsided growth and improvement, then the rural masses will move to the towns and cities. That will cause a social chaos. We must think of India and not the US. Hence, opening up the retail sector is hardly a priority. The industrial sector is what should be the cornerstone. How would De Beer’s diamonds help India to reach its aims? Or let us say Walmart? In fact, Walmart is purveying Chinese goods that are tacky and even dangerous like the toys!

In so far as Operation Parikrama and its effects are concerned, if the US played with an even hand, it is because her national geopolitical interests were on a higher priority than US investments in India. Can’t blame them. This is the exact reason why one should not get enamoured by small happenings and accept big powers, be it the US or Russia and embrace them as long lost brothers. One has to keep one’s feet firmly on the ground. Note the hoop la today over the NSG waiver. Interestingly, none has seen the final document! I marvel at the way we Indians gloat over a lollipop given and think that it is a lifetime supply. It is time to stand up as Indian and be counted.

If one reads the US National Intelligence Summary, one would find that Europe has reached its peak and so has America. They require virgin areas to tap if they have to sustain themselves and their global position. India is virgin territory and hence lucrative to them as is China. China has understood this and demanding their pound of flesh, while we are still grovelling for handouts!

I would like to suggest that the US has to worry itself into not inaction but in action over what you claim as tensions cold between India and China. US has a stake in Asia. China is slowing overhauling the US and India is her proxy in this area. Pakistan has already gone China’s way and if India is indifferent, the US will find no leg to stand in Asia and that would be dangerous for her, more so with a resurgent Russia!

As far as imponderables go, geostrategy is all about being ready for the imponderable and shape it with events so as to make these imponderable conducive to one’s own interests.

On the Pakistan issue, while the US are reckonable to its people, why do you forget that Pakistan too has to be reckonable to its people? While the US has a mission to ensure terrorists do not cross into Pakistan, Pakistan equally is concerned that there is no govt in Afghanistan which is not pro Pakistan. Clash of national wills. The US is powerful and so it can do what it wants, but it is not foolish to cross the Rubicon! There is always the danger of Pakistan changing tack and entering the camp of the resurgent Russia and China is already on her side. That would surely make things difficult for the US as it is doing for the US over Iran!

Japan and South Korea got great deals from the US because of the Cold War. And the Cold War was a serious issue. Today, they are floundering. Japan changes her Prime Minister yearly. Even now, the current PM has resigned and a new one coming in. Their economy is no longer what it used to be. As far as Pakistan is concerned they are not fools squandering their equation with the US. They are making the most of it. The English metaphor – running with the hare and hunting with the hound is an apt description. They are using the US ‘bribe’ not to organise against terrorism, but refurbishing her military for the next round with India. Do you think that the Amarnath issue that has created such a turmoil is really an issue? It is a carefully orchestrated move by Pakistan and its agents in Kashmir, to whip up a religious turmoil so as to ‘legitimise’ future military adventures!

If you feel I am a cynic wherein I doubt the intelligence of my countrymen, I must owe you an apology. I am a cynic since I have lived life longer than most of you and I have seen the transition from the Raj hangover to the wild Communist ideology of sham patriotism. I would say the timespan of my living days has been such a kaleidoscope that it leaves me baffled and buffeted between extremes!

If the US politicians are taking greater interest in ‘controlling’ Pakistan, don’t you think that any sovereign country would vociferously object to such neo colonialism? While I understand the ire of Indians over Pakistan, yet one must be fair to them too! They also serve even by waiting! I am no proxy for Pakistan, but I sure feel that one should look at the world event dispassionately and not sitting on their favourite hobby horse.

The price of Freedom cannot be equated in the lives and money that is invested. A grateful country should acknowledge it’s brave. India does that?

I am sure Russia and China can look after themselves. To be frank it does not matter to me in the least.

The US has to worry about them. India is nowhere a gameplayer in world politics, no matter how much the media, international or national, touts its importance. One must understand ones strengths and weaknesses.

But then, so can India without becoming a vassal or being bought off with a lollipop!

[Sumku]

The travel advisories or loss of investor confidence makes no difference when one must understand that there are other countries which too are keen on the vast Indian market. It is time to be like China. They don’t care a damn about any country and instead organises everything on their own terms. Even for non strategic issues they are not perturbed about what the world opinion about them is – the way the just brushed off all criticism about the Olympic and instead showcased an extravaganza that left the world gaping and gasping. It is time to take a leaf off them.

The unfortunate part is that one feels India has arrived, just because the urban middle class finds the globalisation and liberalisation a great change befalling India. There is no doubt that it has improved the living standards, but then the vast majority of India that is out in the rural areas. If there is a lopsided growth and improvement, then the rural masses will move to the towns and cities. That will cause a social chaos. We must think of India and not the US. Hence, opening up the retail sector is hardly a priority. The industrial sector is what should be the cornerstone. How would De Beer’s diamonds help India to reach its aims? Or let us say Walmart? In fact, Walmart is purveying Chinese goods that are tacky and even dangerous like the toys!

In so far as Operation Parikrama and its effects are concerned, if the US played with an even hand, it is because her national geopolitical interests were on a higher priority than US investments in India. Can’t blame them. This is the exact reason why one should not get enamoured by small happenings and accept big powers, be it the US or Russia and embrace them as long lost brothers. One has to keep one’s feet firmly on the ground. Note the hoop la today over the NSG waiver. Interestingly, none has seen the final document! I marvel at the way we Indians gloat over a lollipop given and think that it is a lifetime supply. It is time to stand up as Indian and be counted.

If one reads the US National Intelligence Summary, one would find that Europe has reached its peak and so has America. They require virgin areas to tap if they have to sustain themselves and their global position. India is virgin territory and hence lucrative to them as is China. China has understood this and demanding their pound of flesh, while we are still grovelling for handouts!

I would like to suggest that the US has to worry itself into not inaction but in action over what you claim as tensions cold between India and China. US has a stake in Asia. China is slowing overhauling the US and India is her proxy in this area. Pakistan has already gone China’s way and if India is indifferent, the US will find no leg to stand in Asia and that would be dangerous for her, more so with a resurgent Russia!

As far as imponderables go, geostrategy is all about being ready for the imponderable and shape it with events so as to make these imponderable conducive to one’s own interests.

On the Pakistan issue, while the US are reckonable to its people, why do you forget that Pakistan too has to be reckonable to its people? While the US has a mission to ensure terrorists do not cross into Pakistan, Pakistan equally is concerned that there is no govt in Afghanistan which is not pro Pakistan. Clash of national wills. The US is powerful and so it can do what it wants, but it is not foolish to cross the Rubicon! There is always the danger of Pakistan changing tack and entering the camp of the resurgent Russia and China is already on her side. That would surely make things difficult for the US as it is doing for the US over Iran!

Japan and South Korea got great deals from the US because of the Cold War. And the Cold War was a serious issue. Today, they are floundering. Japan changes her Prime Minister yearly. Even now, the current PM has resigned and a new one coming in. Their economy is no longer what it used to be. As far as Pakistan is concerned they are not fools squandering their equation with the US. They are making the most of it. The English metaphor – running with the hare and hunting with the hound is an apt description. They are using the US ‘bribe’ not to organise against terrorism, but refurbishing her military for the next round with India. Do you think that the Amarnath issue that has created such a turmoil is really an issue? It is a carefully orchestrated move by Pakistan and its agents in Kashmir, to whip up a religious turmoil so as to ‘legitimise’ future military adventures!

If you feel I am a cynic wherein I doubt the intelligence of my countrymen, I must owe you an apology. I am a cynic since I have lived life longer than most of you and I have seen the transition from the Raj hangover to the wild Communist ideology of sham patriotism. I would say the timespan of my living days has been such a kaleidoscope that it leaves me baffled and buffeted between extremes!

If the US politicians are taking greater interest in ‘controlling’ Pakistan, don’t you think that any sovereign country would vociferously object to such neo colonialism? While I understand the ire of Indians over Pakistan, yet one must be fair to them too! They also serve even by waiting! I am no proxy for Pakistan, but I sure feel that one should look at the world event dispassionately and not sitting on their favourite hobby horse.

The price of Freedom cannot be equated in the lives and money that is invested. A grateful country should acknowledge it’s brave. India does that?

I am sure Russia and China can look after themselves. To be frank it does not matter to me in the least.

The US has to worry about them. India is nowhere a gameplayer in world politics, no matter how much the media, international or national, touts its importance. One must understand ones strengths and weaknesses.

But then, so can India without becoming a vassal or being bought off with a lollipop!

Good Post Sir and I agree with every logic implied herein

[Cactus]

If the US politicians are taking greater interest in ‘controlling’ Pakistan, don’t you think that any sovereign country would vociferously object to such neo colonialism? While I understand the ire of Indians over Pakistan, yet one must be fair to them too! They also serve even by waiting! I am no proxy for Pakistan, but I sure feel that one should look at the world event dispassionately and not sitting on their favourite hobby horse.

Brig Ray,

Your chivalry is admirable. If you are speaking from this podium there is very little that I can hope to really understand; I just don't have it in my heart. Yes, I am not knowledgeable about many points you have raised, including - and especially - Operation Parakram. One thing I do remember about that 2002 Indo-Pak crisis was the attack on your fellow soldiers' families on the Kalu Chak Convoy (sp?). When after that and much worse you continue to insist on fair play, it is indeed admirable. Obviously I have highly differing interpretation on how we are viewing the past, but we shall tackle them some other time on relevant threads.

[Ray]

I am not talking from the podium.

My syntax maybe a trifle 'strong', but that I reckon is not deliberate, but more of habit being in an organisation where one gets moulded to be a trifle brash. No offence was meant. If you are hurt, then my sincere apologies! I will try to be more gentler.

The 2002 crisis was because of the attack on the Indian Parliament and not because of the attack on the military camp.

Don't take my word for it.

Since Wikipedia gives a good summary and cite sources, here is what it says:

The 2001-2002 India-Pakistan standoff was a military standoff between India and Pakistan that resulted in the amassing of troops on either side of the International Border (IB) and along the Line of Control (LoC) in the region of Kashmir. This was the second major military standoff between India and Pakistan following the successful detonation of nuclear devices by both countries in 1998 and the most recent standoff between the nuclear rivals. The other had been the Kargil War.

Offensive military build up was initiated by India in response to a militant attack on the Indian Parliament on December 13, 2001 during which fourteen people, including the five men who attacked the building, were killed. India claimed that the attacks were carried out by two Pakistan based militant groups fighting Indian rule in Kashmir, Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) and Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM), both of whom, were backed by Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) agency,[1] a charge Pakistan denied. In the Western media, coverage of the standoff focused on the possibility of a nuclear war between the two countries and the implications of the potential conflict on the United States-led War on Terrorism. Tensions de-escalated following international diplomatic mediation which resulted in the October 2002 withdrawal of Indian[2] and Pakistani troops[3] from the International Border.
2001–2002 India–Pakistan standoff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The unfortunate part is that the military has been attacked not this one time alone at Kaluchak, but the Indian govt has never really been that concerned to organise mobilisation with the intent to attack.

It is true that I will always put India before Self.

We are also taught to 'Know your Enemy' and that includes his strength and weaknesses, the causes and the psychology.

[martinmystry]

More strings should defo be attached to any deals with Pakistan. something like "Secure your boarders or we will do it for you" seems about right.

But the Americans are still trying to forge a relationship with the democratic government in Pakistan and they know how crucial Pakistan is for stability in
Afganistan and war on terror.So they even while knowing well that pakistan is misusing the funds, are tolerating all this.
After all the americans even offered to upgrade the F-16 ,when F-16's can rarely be used in terror fighting in pakistan.