Preacher of hate 'who praised 7/7 bombers' is arrested

[Ray]

If the situation is that there is liberated zones, then it is indeed most unfortunate.

But then, surely the native Britishers should have not quit such places even if the influx brought the standards down.

[Callmecur]

If the situation is that there is liberated zones, then it is indeed most unfortunate.

But then, surely the native Britishers should have not quit such places even if the influx brought the standards down.

I understand what you are saying Ray, but it was a desire on native Brits not to be a part of an overseas community. You see, initially a, say, Pakistani buys a vacant possession house in a district and moves his immediate and extended family in, then other houses become available through reposession and more Pakistanis move in then before you know it the natives see the area turning into a mini version of Lahore and more and more natives move away only for the houses to be bought by the ethnics. Take Blackburn in Lancashire for instance, the Queens Park district is now virtually all Pakistani; mosques have replaced christian churches and everyone walks around in attire appropriate to the land from which they originate - and that includes the second and subsequent generations who are born over here. I should imagine if those Brits who sold to ethnics originally could have foreseen the problems of today, they may have stayed put in their houses and not sold them on.

[PubFather]

Huge number of issues have been raised in this thread.

One of the most serious and telling is the move towards Muslims ghettos (it works for other ethnicities as well but I will return to that shortly). Alam Rock in Birmingham, where the some of the recent arrests took place, is a hugely Muslim area as are other areas in certain English cities.

Is this harmful? Most certainly: imo it increases the seige mentality of Muslim, it reduces the potential for positive cross-cultural links and, conversely, increases "native" discomfort about immigration. The concentrated presence of Muslims in some areas distorts the perception of the overall population of Muslims. This is especially the case for foreign observers - in particular our US cousins. Finally, many of the areas that Muslims tend to congregate are socio-economically depressed. While there is not necessarily a direct causal link, it does make the situation far worse by increasing the feeling of economic discrimination.

Is it inevitable? Possibly not, but certainly natural. If we look at other ethnic groups within the UK, there has historically been a tendency to group together. Jews tended to group together in parts of London, Blacks have done the same thing, and there are Hindu/Indian enclaves in areas of Leicester, for eg. The US has similar problems (unless Hollywood is misleading me ;) ) France certainly does, and parts of Italy show the same hallmarks. So this is a human problem, rather than a uniquely British one.

Can it be prevented? Without excessive govt intervention, not totally. However, the government could act to ban publically funded/supported faith schools. This might just help - parents in the UK often chose where they live based on the quality/nature of the schools in the area. Once a school becomes majority Muslim (or any other religion) then pressure is exerted to keep it that way. For that matter, remove the "act of collective worship" requirement from schools: teach RE by all means, but remove the tacit report from religion.

Other than schools, a key move must be vastly improved immigration controls over people from (and it must be said) Pakistan. It is still too often the custom to send children back to Pakistan for marriage, and then bring the English-illiterate partner back to live in the UK. Perhaps marriage should no longer be the baseline for UK citizenship - a more compelling commitment or utility to the nation should be demanded.

[T_igger_cs_30]

[QUOTE=PubFather;343881]

One of the most serious and telling is the move towards Muslims ghettos [/QUOTE.

I agree PF, it is a human issue, but the choice to allow those areas to become a "ghetto".... is purely there own choice

[PubFather]

Police criticised for terror raid
A watchdog has told the Metropolitan Police to apologise to the two families involved in the "terrifying experience" of the Forest Gate anti-terrorism raid.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission said it had upheld a small number of complaints about the operation in east London in June 2006.

But it added the police had had no choice but to act based on the available intelligence.

One man was shot in the raid but he and another arrested man were not charged.

Mohammed Abdulkahar, 23, who was shot in the shoulder, and his brother Abul Koyair, 20, were released a week after the police operation.

Police had been hunting for a suspected chemical device, but no evidence of a device or of any involvement in terror-related activities was found.

Scotland Yard - which has already apologised - said it was glad that an independent body had concluded its actions at Forest Gate were proportionate, necessary and motivated by public safety.

Prime Minister Tony Blair gave the police his full support and said they faced tough choices in their battle to keep the public safe.

"Sometimes I think they are in a way damned if they do and damned if they don't," he said.

"Without detracting from what the report says, I hope people understand how difficult that job is when they are faced with the prospect of protecting people from a loss of life that could be dreadful, as we saw on July 7, 2005."

The IPCC said several of Mr Abdulkahar's complaints about medication and food were substantiated, and that one police officer had received a written warning about the medication.

It said police tactics during the raid had been "forceful and aggressive", but that this was inevitable as they believed they were dealing with a terrorist threat.

But the police should have changed their response much sooner once in control of the situation, it said.

The 11 members of the two households targeted in the raid made 150 separate complaints about how they had been treated, including that family members not arrested at the scene were taken to a police station.

IPCC commissioner Deborah Glass said: "I've concluded that the police were right to take no chances with public safety.

"But they were wrong not to have planned better for the intelligence being wrong.

"We have upheld a small number of complaints involving treatment in custody.

"We didn't uphold any complaints about excessive force although there is no doubt some of the residents were damaged by police actions."


READ THE IPCC REPORT

Most computers will open PDF documents automatically, but you may need to download Adobe Reader.

Ms Glass said the level of force had to be judged in the light of intelligence which suggested an "extreme lethal threat".

She added: "None of this should minimise the deep and understandable sense of grievance felt by all those affected by what must have been a terrifying experience."

Deputy Assistant Commissioner Alf Hitchcock, of the Metropolitan Police's diversity and citizen focus directorate, said he was happy to reiterate three apologies the force had already made.

But he insisted: "We need to move on from repeating our apologies over and over again and need to learn the lessons around community engagement."

Mr Abdulkahar said: "I don't believe any form of intelligence they have is justification to attack people like this, brutally attacking my dad.

"He is 60 years old, he was half naked and they were beating him on the floor."

Hanif Doga, who lived at one of the houses raided and says he was struck on the head with a gun, said: "I could have died from this injury, yet the IPCC dismiss it as a minor head injury and call for no further action.

"I am deeply disappointed at this report - this is belittling proper investigation."

The Kalam family said they welcomed the IPCC's recommendation for a public apology.

But they added: "It is eight months too late and doesn't go far enough. We each raised many complaints about our brutal treatment at the hands of the police with the IPCC, yet unbelievably, no action is to be taken."

The families also said there was nothing to indicate that the IPCC had investigated the steps the police took to assess the quality of the intelligence leading to the raids.

They were shocked that the report "fails to mention any investigation of the crime of false testimony so clearly committed", they said.

Asad Rehman, chairman of the Newham Monitoring Project, an anti-racism group that represented the brothers, said the report was a "whitewash".

Story from BBC NEWS:
BBC NEWS | UK | Police criticised for terror raid

I haven't started this as a distinct thread (I'm sure someone probably will.. lol) as it touches on some of the same issues as in this thread...

A couple of interesting points emerge from this:

1) Despite the huge pressure from Muslim groups (who do themselves no favours at all by continuing to plead discrimination imo) the security forces have been fairly resolute in acting on intelligence against the Muslims or indeed of arresting Muslim demogogues. This is far from the "surrender" often protrayed by some people I could mention. The political support has also been fairly robust.

2) At the very least, we have been seen to inspect our processes and publically declare that they were necessary. There was stinging criticsm from the IPCC about the way the operation was carried out. There was no critiscm about the requirement for the operation.

3) Islam will continue to lose support if it continues beating this racism drum. Frankly, they should be glad that there has not been more of a backlash against them. "Why is it always Muslims..." seems to be a popular warcry at the moment. Because Muslims are the ones doing the bombing at the moment. A few years ago, it was the Irish. The Muslims are being treated far more even-handedly than the Irish ever were.

[subba]

Pubfather Sir, excellent post!. Good points made indeed. However:

imo it increases the seige mentality of Muslim, it reduces the potential for positive cross-cultural links and, conversely, increases "native" discomfort about immigration.

I think Muslims (except the most educated and erudite ones) make it to the ghetto's not only in UK, but in India too. They seige themselves by their rejection of the host population ethics. And i'm saying ANY host population for that matter that is not Islamic.

Then comes the victimization game. The Liberals show through absolutely impartial studies Muslims getting a smaller slice of what the nation has to offer by virtue of education, salary etc. Then the Mullahs can easily influence the lot and exploit them.

IMVHO it's self ghetto'ization to claim victimization thats the culprit.

[PubFather]

[QUOTE=T_igger_cs_30;343883]

I agree PF, it is a human issue, but the choice to allow those areas to become a "ghetto".... is purely there own choice

I wouldn't disagree... However, it is understandable - as the Spaniards on the Costa del Sol or certain areas of France could no doubt agree with.

Perhaps there needs to be clearer official recognition of the problem - and make it explicit that the areas that are socio-economically deprived are not poor because the government makes it so. Accidents of history (especially the collaspse of UK manufacturing, especially textiles in the South Asian example) are part of the reason. Equally, it was always much cheaper to acquire cheap housing in deprived areas than it was in affluent areas, for obvious reasons. Add to that the usual council housing debacle, and you have the current problems.

It should also be more vociferously pointed out that many "White" ghettos exist. Tell them to visit Easterhouse/Parkhead/Coatbridge sometime...!!

[PubFather]

Pubfather Sir, excellent post!. Good points made indeed. However:



I think Muslims (except the most educated and erudite ones) make it to the ghetto's not only in UK, but in India too. They seige themselves by their rejection of the host population ethics. And i'm saying ANY host population for that matter that is not Islamic.

Then comes the victimization game. The Liberals show through absolutely impartial studies Muslims getting a smaller slice of what the nation has to offer by virtue of education, salary etc. Then the Mullahs can easily influence the lot and exploit them.

IMVHO it's self ghetto'ization to claim victimization thats the culprit.

An interesting idea Subba - but I genuinely don't believe Muslim "ghettos" exist as self-conciously as you suggest. Certainly not in the sense that you describe.
It may be different in India - and I would be very interested in reading more about India's ethnic makeup if you had some good links.

However, as I infer, I don't believe they exist to "create" the seige mentality. They exist for fundamental, sociological reasons, and the resulting seige mentality is an unhappy consequence of that tendency.

[Ray]

I think both of you are correct since it is not just one factor that affects the ghettoisation of any community.

It is a comfortable feeling to be amongst one's own because the environment in all its factors, is predictable.

External 'threats' draws in more of the community to the focal point and the 'siege mentality' takes over.

However, ghettos tends club all, without any differentiation of social and economic status. When people start doing well and get accepted by the native society, they tend to move out and to show that they have 'arrived'.

I could be wrong in my surmise in the last paragraph.

[Callmecur]

I think both of you are correct since it is not just one factor that affects the ghettoisation of any community.

It is a comfortable feeling to be amongst one's own because the environment in all its factors, is predictable.

Very true Ray, another reason why the Pakistani community in this country tend to ghettoise is one of language - very few women actually speak English, despite living here for years; it appears that the husbands do not want them to learn the language lest their women achieve some degree of independence.

[Ray]

Pubfather,

Therefore, the Irish are the most grateful for the immigration! ;) :)

[brokensickle]

We are seing more public paid faith schools for Muslim's...

Can it be prevented? Without excessive govt intervention, not totally. However, the government could act to ban publicly funded/supported faith schools. This might just help - parents in the UK often chose where they live based on the quality/nature of the schools in the area. Once a school becomes majority Muslim (or any other religion) then pressure is exerted to keep it that way. For that matter, remove the "act of collective worship" requirement from schools: teach RE by all means, but remove the tacit report from religion.

It seems that publicly sponsored, "Faith Schools", are popping up all over the world for Muslim's. Here's an example of a new one in NYC, USA. They claim it's for Arabic Studies.

City To Open Arabic Public School In Brooklyn



The Department of Education says that it will open a public school next fall dedicated to Arabic language and culture.

The Khalil Gibran International Academy is one of 40 new schools that will their debut in the city next September.

Education officials say that although half the classes at the school will be taught in Arabic, they want to enroll a diverse student body.

The school is set to open in Brooklyn.

I guess I will be considered a paranoid weirdo to think that all this stuff with Muslim's round the world killing, preaching hate toward infidels, creating parallel law with Sharia in non-Muslim countries, starting up public funded schools and yelling in the public squares death to western leaders who stand in their way, is consistent with the Qu'ran and orders of Allah. Darn it I said it!
Many so called moderate mosques are paying to send their young men to madrasas to train them to kill infidels. Or preaching hate for the west and its leaders. Am I the only one who notices these things?


Ivan the paranoid weirdo:)

[bandwagon]

It seems that publicly sponsored, "Faith Schools", are popping up all over the world for Muslim's. Here's an example of a new one in NYC, USA. They claim it's for Arabic Studies.

The Khalil Gibran International Academy is one of 40 new schools that will their debut in the city next September.

Education officials say that although half the classes at the school will be taught in Arabic, they want to enroll a diverse student body.

The school is set to open in Brooklyn.[/COLOR]

I guess I will be considered a paranoid weirdo to think that all this stuff with Muslim's round the world killing, preaching hate toward infidels, creating parallel law with Sharia in non-Muslim countries, starting up public funded schools and yelling in the public squares death to western leaders who stand in their way, is consistent with the Qu'ran and orders of Allah

It's just odd that the Arabic Muslim faith school you indicted should be named after Khalil Gibran 'cos he was Christian and all his writings were in English.

[Ray]

Very true Ray, another reason why the Pakistani community in this country tend to ghettoise is one of language - very few women actually speak English, despite living here for years; it appears that the husbands do not want them to learn the language lest their women achieve some degree of independence.

I am surprised that willfully they don't allow their women folk to learn English.

What about the second generation Pakistani women? Are they also deprived?

Do the Pakistani girls mix with society in general like any youngster would or do they remain like the 'touch me not' plant (for the want of a better word to describe the point).

[Ray]

It's just odd that the Arabic Muslim faith school you indicted should be named after Khalil Gibran 'cos he was Christian and all his writings were in English.

That is called Al Takiya.

Well, at least in concept.