The president's speech

[Bluesman]

Shek, this is good. But you also need some harismatic leader to lead them..... without that they will fall apart...... this leader now is needed more than constitution. Why? because law of constitution traditionally meant nothing for Iraqis...... while law of a leader meant much. You need a Local War Leader.

in Afghanistan Russia has brought those forces to a level when they had their own aviation, tanks, artillery, millitary academies..... it all fell down in just 2 years once SU left the country. Their leader was just a soviet made beureacrat from communist party.... he knew how to play intrigues not how to fight for his regime.

No. If ANY society is to flourish, it has to be based on LAW, not MEN. Another personality cult is the last thing Iraq needs, ESPECIALLY now.

The example given actually butresses MY point, not yours. Afghanistan was always ruled by despots - until WE got there. It is not surprising that a regime that was not based on Rule of Law collapsed.

Now, if you'd said that the Iraqis need good military and law enforcement leadership, I'd agree with that proposition. But note well, legitimate military and police leadership must subordinate itself to civil authority - and we're right back to revering the Rule of Law, and rejecting the Rule of Men.

[Garry]

No. If ANY society is to flourish, it has to be based on LAW, not MEN. Another personality cult is the last thing Iraq needs, ESPECIALLY now.

The example given actually butresses MY point, not yours. Afghanistan was always ruled by despots - until WE got there. It is not surprising that a regime that was not based on Rule of Law collapsed.

Now, if you'd said that the Iraqis need good military and law enforcement leadership, I'd agree with that proposition. But note well, legitimate military and police leadership must subordinate itself to civil authority - and we're right back to revering the Rule of Law, and rejecting the Rule of Men.

The Rule of Law is good thing to have. But be realistic it is not possible to have one in Iraq.... I have never been there nor even spoke to Iraqi guy but from what I've read or heard Iraq looks like a pretty much a tribal society. You can't expect the Rule of Law to work out raidly in such society. People who lived in tribal societies can not change.... their kids probably. A strong War Leader is promotes central power and fights tribes...... he installes his Central Law..... this is how tribal societies transfer to Rule of One Law.... not that at one moment everybody suddenly start respecting the law and protecting it like holy idea. If you may influence that leader positivelly he will make much for creating thriving economy and basis for wealth => democracy in two generations. Like you did in South Korea, or Chilie (still I hate that busturd).... Some other countries were lucky enough to have their dictators following same track themselves like Singapore or Taiwan. And still I am mentioning you the about countries where there was no tribal society initially and where rule of law was installed long before. Name me at least one country where tribal society has evolved to democracy without strong leadership between that? Or which managed to do that in less than 20 years (period which brings in new generation)? I doubt you find one.......

It is easy to be idealistic and demand Rule of Law for somebody who can not live in that society.... look who enlists into new police/army in Iraq? Yes... mostly shias...... don't you feel the grip of tribal society?

[Leader]

nicely said

That's got to be the worst first post I've ever seen. Worst user name too

[smilingassassin]

nicely said

Quaint..... care to tell us why its nicely said, are you afraid of debate or are you merely back slapping?