Israel launches massive search for three youths feared kidnapped in West Bank

[gf0012-aust]

G,

No issues with what you say, more or less it echos my sentiments. However, what's with settlements in the territories won in all those Arab-Israeli conflict?

The issue I have with the issue of territories won in a conflict is that if we are going to hold the israelis to account then we better go back and redraw europe as well - and then its a matter of picking a century to start as a baseline. Countries who start wars and lose territory have abrogated their right to bleed their hearts. The League thought that they'd have an easy win - they lost, a number of times. Lesson learnt, don't conduct state on state conflict with israel unless you want to lose battles and teritory. Hence why all of a sudden members of the league were happy to give tacit approval to non state actors like Hamas to take the role of being a drain and proxy against israel

I don't support the establishment of extra settlements on the territories, and I don't think netanyahu is the right man to have on the israeli side - but I rigidly support israels right to exist. Hamas and their ilk can't have their cake and eat it. Unless they acknowledge Israels right to exist and acknowledge its establishment in 1948, they can hardly then appeal to the UN when it suits them. The palestinians have been used as a political chess piece by neighbours ever since 73.

the world is about to go into a far greater schitt fight, a greater multi-generational conflict - and the irony is that the moderate arab states will again go calling to israeli intelligence to assist in their own survival. its about time that some of them fronted up and acknowledged that they deal with the israelis and need them more than they want the palestinians manipulated by Hamas and their ilk

[kato]

[Hamas] doesn't recognise the 1948 decision

Just to point it out, Israel effectively stopped recognising that in 1949.

[gf0012-aust]

G, I disagree, senior Hamas members have been willing to recognize Israel. Given a 10 year truce, the pressures of ruling which generally seek to moderate radicalism could work wonders. They are not an nihilst group.

As for holding Israel to account- she is a state and expected to act as such which means in part obeying international law and treaties she is party to. More so because she is the heir of the Holocaust, she should be even more aware of the injustice she is doing. What other group think or did in the past to the Palestinians does not in any rational way justify what she is doing now. Israel has occupied the territories since 1967, 47 years. Its time for her to either shit (annex and grant citizenship) of get off the pot (end the occupation).

Oh speaking of judicial process- did you here about Israel stripping residency from a Palestinians woman who visited her daughter in college in Canada. Seems as a permanent resident of Jerusalem, she is only allowed to be gone for a certain amount of time from the land and city of her birth or she becomes stateless....

when Hamas has jewish representation like Israel has had with paleistinians elected to the knesset - then I'll start considering the merits of a terrorist org masquerading as legitimate representatives.

there are countries in europe that regard their ex pats as still acountable to national law - despite being in another country and talking up that countries citizenship - so I'm curious as to the continued enthusiasm to hold the israelis up when there are very few (if any) political paragons of virtue anywhere on the planet.

I find the enthusiasm on trying to pillory and hold the israelis to account just as odious as BDS doing everything but getting jews to have yellow stars velcroed to their clothing. The League should do some total recall and remember why those territories were lost in the first place. If they want to continue to toe that line then they better start rewriting their own borders with some of their neighbours

[zraver]

when Hamas has jewish representation like Israel has had with paleistinians elected to the knesset - then I'll start considering the merits of a terrorist org masquerading as legitimate representatives.

There are no Palestinians in the Knesset. There are Israeli Arabs but no Palestinians and no permanent residents of Jerusalem.

there are countries in europe that regard their ex pats as still acountable to national law - despite being in another country and talking up that countries citizenship - so I'm curious as to the continued enthusiasm to hold the israelis up when there are very few (if any) political paragons of virtue anywhere on the planet.

What exactly does that have to do with anything? I said Israel made a mother stateless for visiting her daughter in Canada.Something Israel does not do to Jewish citizens.

I find the enthusiasm on trying to pillory and hold the israelis to account just as odious as BDS doing everything but getting jews to have yellow stars velcroed to their clothing. The League should do some total recall and remember why those territories were lost in the first place. If they want to continue to toe that line then they better start rewriting their own borders with some of their neighbours

BDS is about ending the occupation, not antisemitism against Israel proper. I'm guessing 99.9% of the people who support BDS recognize Israel's right to exist. I do. But we also recognize the right of the Palestinians to exist. Sorry, no gold or yellow stars for you.

The last sentence is borderline trolling - pull your head in as I won't tolerate it

GF


btw, Israeli has had palestinians in the knesset, they might not now but they have - ie the capacity to get voted in

[kato]

Seems as a permanent resident of Jerusalem, she is only allowed to be gone for a certain amount of time from the land and city of her birth or she becomes stateless....

That's actually the default for Palestinians. Every single Palestinian I know living around here in Germany is stateless, and considered by Germany a person-whose-deportation-is-on-hold because (currently) we no longer deport Palestinians to Israel. That's for actual Palestinians though, not Israeli Arabs.

[zraver]

That's actually the default for Palestinians. Every single Palestinian I know living around here in Germany is stateless, and considered by Germany a person-whose-deportation-is-on-hold because (currently) we no longer deport Palestinians to Israel. That's for actual Palestinians though, not Israeli Arabs.

She was a permanent resident of Jerusalem. Denied citizenship and instead granted permanent residency in the land and city of her birth. She went to visit a daughter in college in Canada and had her residency yanked and is not allowed to return home.

Legal Status of East Jerusalem and its Residents | B'Tselem

[citanon]

Everyone shoots traitors during wartime.

Dok, I'm sure all 18 people they shot were thoroughly investigated and found guilty of spying for Israel after a proper trial.

Oh, wait, no I'm not. Wouldn't be surprised if some of these poor souls had nothing to do with spying for Israel and everything to do with being readily within reach of murderous thugs looking for somebody to kill. I guess Palestinian lives are cheap. At least, Hamas certainly thinks so.

[zraver]

Dok, I'm sure all 18 people they shot were thoroughly investigated and found guilty of spying for Israel after a proper trial.

Oh, wait, no I'm not. Wouldn't be surprised if some of these poor souls had nothing to do with spying for Israel and everything to do with being readily within reach of murderous thugs looking for somebody to kill. I guess Palestinian lives are cheap. At least, Hamas certainly thinks so.

So does Israel.

[Doktor]

That's actually the default for Palestinians. Every single Palestinian I know living around here in Germany is stateless, and considered by Germany a person-whose-deportation-is-on-hold because (currently) we no longer deport Palestinians to Israel. That's for actual Palestinians though, not Israeli Arabs.

So, how they got there? No direct flights between Germany and Palestinian territories.

[Goatboy]

israel gives nationals engaged in espionage life imprisonment
uk, aust, nz haven't shot a traitor since the end of ww1

hamas is listed as a terrorist organisation and in this case has engaged in summary execution - none of these people were subjected to a judicial review, they had no right of appeal - as is available to all traitors if identified as such in the west

lipstick on a pig still leaves you with a pig

If I assume these 18 killed Palestinians were informants for Israel in some capacity (there's no reason to think otherwise yet frankly), then yes, I'd say their deaths were hasty and brutal. But they weren't all that noteworthy, and certainly not an example of "radical Islam kills for fun" like Netanyahu seems to think. Nations under threat of annihilation behave differently than those merely "at war". Gaza suffered orders of magnitude greater violence than Israel this past month. Israel unequivocally constituted an existential threat to Gaza, and not just to the Hamas administration, but to Palestinian civil society. Hamas didn't last month, nor does it now constitute anything close to an existential threat to Israel. All Hamas will ever be to Israel is just a serious pain in the ass.


In an alternate universe, Palestinian shock troops are combing the devastated Israeli countryside, looking for IDF soldiers to shoot. 8000 Israelis are dead, 40,000 injured, and 2 million fled their homes (proportionately similar to Gazans in this universe). Several -- critically important to the war effort -- IDF commanders were obliterated in a Palestinian missile attack. Oops, it looks like some Israelis had been giving information to the Palestinians about those commander's whereabouts during a specified time. What does Israel do with these informants? I don't know. But I DO know that this is the scenario from which Israel should be judged, now, right here in this universe.

[Goatboy]

Israel targets a "Hamas operations room", but levels the entire 12 story building the room is in. Is it necessary to obliterate a building to take out a room, or a floor?

How long before Israel levels a 10 story building and kills a couple hundred in one fell swoop?



Video: Israel topples 12-story apartment building in Gaza.

[citanon]

So does Israel.

Well z, I think we are getting to common ground. Tell me, if Israel is doing everything it can to protect its own civilians while caring about the lives as Palestinians as much as Hamas, and Hamas is trying as hard as it can to kill Israeli civilians while caring about its own people about as much as Israel, where on the scale of relative morality in war, do we place these two combatants?

[zraver]

Well z, I think we are getting to common ground. Tell me, if Israel is doing everything it can to protect its own civilians while caring about the lives as Palestinians as much as Hamas, and Hamas is trying as hard as it can to kill Israeli civilians while caring about its own people about as much as Israel, where on the scale of relative morality in war, do we place these two combatants?

Standard to judge Israel- nation state bound by treaty

Standard to judge Palestinian Resistance Groups- insurgency fighting an occupation and colonization.

[Doktor]

Standard to judge Israel- nation state bound by treaty

Standard to judge Palestinian Resistance Groups- insurgency fighting an occupation and colonization.

OK, so what's the equation on valuing the human life? Be whatever you want to be, when you put your kids in front of your fighters, your morality is gone.

[Goatboy]

OK, so what's the equation on valuing the human life? Be whatever you want to be, when you put your kids in front of your fighters, your morality is gone.

I wouldn't call Israeli settlement policy, tolerance of settler extremism, nor IDF conduct of the war in Gaza this past month particularly moral.