Hundreds Die as Egyptian Forces Attack Islamist Protesters

[tankie]

MB advocating "a day of anger" today 16th Aug , :pop:

[rj1]

Am I he only one that finds it slightly disgusting that the Muslim Brotherhood, repressed and persecuted for their beliefs, immediately went and decided to go beat up on some Coptic Christians, a group weaker than the Brotherhood, that is also repressed and persecuted for their beliefs?

When society breaks down, you go French Revolution and attack the people you never liked to begin with.

Imagine in 20 years or so after this is all (hopefully) over, we'll remove the lines and just call all of this one huge pan-Arab conflict where each side has multiple groups and governments belonging to it.

Iran/Syria/Alawites/Shiites/Assad/Hezbollah/Qatar/Mubarak/Egyptian military/Gaddafi/ousted Tunisian president

vs.

al-Qaeda/Muslim Brotherhood/Morsi/Free Syrian Army/Saudi Arabia/Bahrain/Libyan rebels/Tunisian rebels/Sunnis/Islamists

Locals on the outside for various reasons but have a stake in the game: Turkey/Israel/Iraq/Jordan/local Christians/millions of civilians that likely don't back either side

more or less right?

[Agnostic Muslim]

Am I he only one that finds it slightly disgusting that the Muslim Brotherhood, repressed and persecuted for their beliefs, immediately went and decided to go beat up on some Coptic Christians, a group weaker than the Brotherhood, that is also repressed and persecuted for their beliefs?

Did the Muslim Brotherhood leadership authorize this? Were these acts condoned by the MB as an institution/entity, or were they acts perpetrated by extremist elements (without MB sanction) that may or may not belong to the MB?

[zraver]

Did the Muslim Brotherhood leadership authorize this? Were these acts condoned by the MB as an institution/entity, or were they acts perpetrated by extremist elements (without MB sanction) that may or may not belong to the MB?

Who cares, just kill all the jihadis and and supporters and be done with it. You've all proven you can't live in peace with the rest of us.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Who cares, just kill all the jihadis and and supporters and be done with it. You've all proven you can't live in peace with the rest of us.

And how exactly can you be certaian that the thousands of people protesting against a military coup, the millions who voted for Morsi and the hundreds massacred by the Egyptian security forces are 'jihadis and supporters'?

Supporting the massacre of those whose political ideology you disagree with (the MB continues to maintain that it supports change through the political process rather than violence) would suggest that you have more in common with 'Jihadis, extremists and terrorists' than the MB protesters being massacred.

[Mihais]

And how exactly can you be certaian that the thousands of people protesting against a military coup, the millions who voted for Morsi and the hundreds massacred by the Egyptian security forces are 'jihadis and supporters'?

Supporting the massacre of those whose political ideology you disagree with (the MB continues to maintain that it supports change through the political process rather than violence) would suggest that you have more in common with 'Jihadis, extremists and terrorists' than the MB protesters being massacred.

In 1905 there were many folks driven by humane feelings towards mankind.In 1917 there were fewer such good people.The whole humanity suffered because of this lacking.Both the Egyptian army and Assad are doing a good thing for their countries and the whole humanity.

In time,ME will find its way to progress.Islamism,no matter how nicely dressed will only increase the butcher's bill.I'd rather have a few hundreds thousands killed now than millions or tens of millions killed tomorrow.

[zraver]

And how exactly can you be certaian that the thousands of people protesting against a military coup, the millions who voted for Morsi and the hundreds massacred by the Egyptian security forces are 'jihadis and supporters'?

Supporting the massacre of those whose political ideology you disagree with (the MB continues to maintain that it supports change through the political process rather than violence) would suggest that you have more in common with 'Jihadis, extremists and terrorists' than the MB protesters being massacred.

If they support the MB they are jihadis, thus its not a massacre its a public service to the rest of us. The MB and its supporters have spent decades creating the modern terror filled world. They have killed hundreds of thousands across multiple continents, most of them helpless civilians. They advocate and carry out genocide and the only cure for them is to burn them out.

[Agnostic Muslim]

If they support the MB they are jihadis ..

How does supporting the MB (the political organization that has renounced violence) make these people 'jihadis'?

The MB and its supporters have spent decades creating the modern terror filled world. They have killed hundreds of thousands across multiple continents, most of them helpless civilians. They advocate and carry out genocide and the only cure for them is to burn them out.

How exactly is the current MB, that has renounced violence, and continues to encourage its supporters to not resort to violence in the face of massacres by the Egyptian security forces, 'responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of mostly helpless civilians'?

In fact, it is YOUR comments on this thread that are quite clearly advocating and supporting the massacres of 'helpless civilians' merely because you disagree with their non-violent political ideology. It is YOUR comments and your beliefs (advocating massacres and genocide of supporters of the MB) that have far more in common with the ideology of Al Qaeda and extremist hatemongers (entities that would prefer to kill all those who disagree with their political and religious views) and not those of the MB as you claim.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Both the Egyptian army and Assad are doing a good thing for their countries and the whole humanity.

The Egyptian Army's actions are not comparable to Assad's - Assad did not overthrow a democratically elected government and then massacre hundreds (perhaps thousands) of peaceful protesters demanding a restoration of the elected government. Go back a couple of years and had this been Mubarak I would have agreed with you.

In time,ME will find its way to progress.Islamism,no matter how nicely dressed will only increase the butcher's bill.

I fail to understand how the forceful overthrow of a democratic government and the massacres of peaceful protesters constitutes 'progress', and constitutes policies that would convince those to come that 'a peaceful political process is the way forward', given that it is violence and bloodshed that has formed the basis for the Egyptian military seizing power.

[zraver]

How does supporting the MB (the political organization that has renounced violence) make these people 'jihadis'?

Go ask a Copt. They did not renounce violence, as soon as they had power they showed their true colors. I have zero pity for them or you. I'm done playing nice with those like you who support terror.

[Mihais]

The Egyptian Army's actions are not comparable to Assad's - Assad did not overthrow a democratically elected government and then massacre hundreds (perhaps thousands) of peaceful protesters demanding a restoration of the elected government. Go back a couple of years and had this been Mubarak I would have agreed with you.

I fail to understand how the forceful overthrow of a democratic government and the massacres of peaceful protesters constitutes 'progress', and constitutes policies that would convince those to come that 'a peaceful political process is the way forward', given that it is violence and bloodshed that has formed the basis for the Egyptian military to seize power.

If you could travel in time back in 1917,would you support the peacefull aspirations of the hungry masses,or would you repress them as harshly as possible?

Leadership means taking hard decisions in times of crisis,with little time to think about,incomplete informations and AGAINST the instincts of the majority.

If Egypt goes the way of Syria,with a divided army and embittered and divided people,the toll will be much higher.The army must make a river of blood flow now,quickly,to shock the islamists into obedience,before the troops start to waver.This is no time for lawyerish interpretations of whatever ideology is more fancy.Fuck democracy,human rights&free dissent.Now there are more important things at risk.
This is literally one of the last chances to avoid a disaster.If this crap doesn't cease in 2 months,it's likely over.

[zraver]

If you could travel in time back in 1917,would you support the peacefull aspirations of the hungry masses,or would you repress them as harshly as possible?

Leadership means taking hard decisions in times of crisis,with little time to think about,incomplete informations and AGAINST the instincts of the majority.

If Egypt goes the way of Syria,with a divided army and embittered and divided people,the toll will be much higher.The army must make a river of blood flow now,quickly,to shock the islamists into obedience,before the troops start to waver.This is no time for lawyerish interpretations of whatever ideology is more fancy.Fuck democracy,human rights&free dissent.Now there are more important things at risk.
This is literally one of the last chances to avoid a disaster.If this crap doesn't cease in 2 months,it's likely over.

He wants the army to waiver, he wants the Islamist to triumph in a river of blood. He supports global jihad and the Islamic death machine.

[tankie]

Like i said , the religion of peace is busy killing itself in the name of ,, er , religion , BOLLOX ,and you AM , advocate it , wanker .

[zraver]

Great article on the truth of the MB

This Is What It Looks Like Just Before the Muslim Brotherhood Jumps You - ANIMAL

[Agnostic Muslim]

Attacks on Protesters in Cairo Were Calculated to Provoke, Some Say
Bryan Denton for The New York Times

The ferocity of the attacks by security forces on Islamist protesters in Cairo this week appears to have been a deliberate calculation of the military-appointed government to provoke violence from the Muslim Brotherhood and its allies, a number of Arab and Western historians of Middle East politics said Friday.

The objective, they said in interviews, was to demonize the Islamists in the eyes of Egypt’s broader populace, validate the July 3 ouster of the Islamist president and subvert any possibility that dialogue would reintegrate the Muslim Brotherhood into Egypt’s mainstream politics. While many said it seemed premature to call the violence in Egypt a precursor to civil war, they said the hatreds unleashed on all sides presaged a possible future of low-level insurgency by embittered, alienated Islamists. Some drew parallels to Algeria, where the military also intervened to subvert Islamist ascendance in democratic electoral politics more than two decades ago, leading to a horrific period of mayhem and repression.

“Given the propaganda of the state-supported media in Cairo, tarring the Muslim Brotherhood with the terrorist brush, making them enemies, not just a nuisance, is setting them up for being completely crushed and eliminated,” said Hugh Roberts, director of the Middle Eastern Studies Program at Tufts University. “To use an Algerian term, eradication.”

Many said the events since the forced removal of Mohamed Morsi, the first freely elected president, suggested that Egypt’s military commanders had concluded beforehand that they would gain nothing from negotiations with the Brotherhood, and would rather deal with it as an insurgent group that presented a security threat, not as a popular political movement.

None saw evidence that Gen. Abdul-Fattah el-Sisi, Egypt’s top military authority, and his subordinates in the Interior Ministry and the police had been moved by foreign pressure to compromise with the Islamists, despite public lip service to the politics of inclusion.

“Clearly for some segments of the security apparatus, there was an anxiety over the reinclusion of the Muslim Brotherhood in the political process,” said Tarek Masoud, assistant professor of public policy at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard. “Precisely because these negotiations might have gotten somewhere, they wanted to stop the Muslim Brotherhood in its tracks. You could pick no better strategy than the heavy-handed manner in which they dealt with these protests.”

Overwhelming force was used to purge the Islamist protest encampments in two Cairo squares on Wednesday despite pledges of restraint and open discussion about the use of more passive strategies like a blockade. More than 600 people were killed in those assaults, which became a catalyst for angry Islamist reprisals, many directed against the police and Egypt’s Christian minority.

“The crackdown on the 14th was intended to provoke the Islamists to react violently — I’m fairly convinced of that,” said Issandr el-Amrani, a journalist and political analyst who blogs as the Arabist, a widely followed Web site. “If you look at what happened since the July 3 coup, the international community wanted to see some kind of compromise arrangement, and I think the military in Egypt felt trapped by that, felt that it would have to make concessions.”

Mr. Amrani, a Moroccan American who has lived in Egypt for years, said he believed there had been “an understanding between the military and the security services, whose entire history has been against the Muslim Brotherhood, and the secularists, who saw this as a historic chance to put the Muslim Brotherhood out of business.”

While the consequence might return Egypt to another era of repression, he said, “they felt they could live with that — there would not be any sharing of power with the Islamists.”

Many Islamists in Egypt have been making such accusations since Mr. Morsi was deposed, while the military-appointed government and its supporters have denied them. At the same time, sincere language of tolerance and restraint in Egypt, once heard during the innocent days of the 2011 revolution, has faded.

“When everybody in Egypt talks about inclusive politics, they’re lying,” said Steven A. Cook, senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies at the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington.

Mr. Cook and others attributed some responsibility for the events of this past week to the Islamists, saying violence appeared inevitable after protest leaders at the Cairo encampments had exhorted followers to martyr themselves if attacked.

“I don’t think you can get much clearer than that,” Mr. Cook said. “They’re asking the people to die for a cause.”

Mr. Roberts noted that the comparisons between Egypt and Algeria were limited. In Algeria, the military intervened to nullify elections before the winning Islamist candidates could even take office, while in Egypt the Islamists won elections and their president served for a year.

In Algeria, the Islamist political organization was young and untested, while the Muslim Brotherhood has been part of Egyptian life for 85 years, much of it as an outlawed group, with much organizational skill.

Partly for that reason, Mr. Roberts said, it was by no means clear that the Brotherhood would be crippled in the new period of uncertainty now confronting Egypt. Likewise, he said, Egypt’s armed forces do not necessarily have the upper hand.

“A question here is, which of the two has bitten off more than they can chew,” he said. “It may be the army. They made a calculation but they’ve gambled on it. The Muslim Brotherhood has shown more staying power, more willingness to take a beating.”

Others agreed that Egypt was in such turmoil that it was impossible to assess the outcomes.

“Clearly today Egypt is not on a trajectory to democracy, pluralism, tolerance. It is polarized, divided and bloody,” said Tamara Cofman Wittes, director of the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution in Washington.

“We’re back to the security state,” she said. “The more optimistic thing I’ll say is: I don’t think that’s sustainable. It’s not the same as the 1990s. The Egyptian people are mobilized, they refuse to live under a government that represses their creativity.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/17/wo...s&emc=rss&_r=0