Terrorist attacks in Paris

[Versus]

The guy smuggling weapons is not related to the attack, as far as I know.

[citanon]

Kill them all, and let God sort them out, is that it? So, to eliminate the KKK threat back when it was peaking, slaughtering Christians left and right would have been the solution?

what ooe is saying is that it's easier for war to slide into genocide than people would like to admit.

WWII, often held up as prime example of just war in the past century, saw our forces indiscriminately destroy entire cities and our service men sending home boiled Japanese bones as momentos.

our society is not so much further above savagery than we are above fear. when fear is present and pervasive, savagery is not so far behind.

when Bill Clinton's envoy was trying to get back our captured blackhawk pilot from Mohammed farrah-adid after the black hawk down incident, he told the warlord that if the angry young men of the marine expeditionary force steam towards them were to land in Mogadishu, not only would the women and children die, but not even the goats and animals would be spared. Adid let the pilot go. both men knew that it was not an idle threat. it was not that the marines would be out to kill the women and children, but rather that the op would be conducted with a different degree of ruthlessness, and there was no where to run.

here is another example from even more recent history: how many al Qaeda affiliated women and children have died in us air strikes? I have no idea and neither do most Americans, because frankly people don't care.

now expand that by a factor of 10 or 100 if the problem grows.

[Officer of Engineers]

Kill them all, and let God sort them out, is that it? So, to eliminate the KKK threat back when it was peaking, slaughtering Christians left and right would have been the solution?

It was the Mao Tse-Tung solution or did your own historic expertise escaped you?

[kato]

So, I wonder if the guy/guys traveling from Syria are the ring leaders.
it would make some sense. operatives are mostly french locals, but send in combat hardened leadership to anchor the group and make sure the op goes down right.

It makes more sense if the anchor leadership and planning and background support are local. Operatives are disposable assets, and since in the kind of operation used here they're highly likely to be identified best imported in order to not link them to the local group.

[citanon]

It makes more sense if the anchor leadership and planning and background support are local. Operatives are disposable assets, and since in the kind of operation used here they're highly likely to be identified best imported in order to not link them to the local group.

You cannot provide combat leadership (which is what IS would think of this op as) without preferably recent combat experience.

You can have locals support, but the shooters are in charge.

[snapper]

Not sure about wiping them all them out; changing their mindset seems a better long term solution to me and I speak as one with Muslim friends and as a Catholic who has prayed in Mosques before. You cannot demonise a religion because of a few lunatics but having said that I'd say I'll see your Jihad and raise you a Crusade to this ISIS scum who appear to believe all people MUST pray in a Mosque. If you cannot accept my Church as I accept your Mosque then long term we can talk but short term if you are murdering people you cannot be permitted to continue this terrorism.

[citanon]

Not sure about wiping them all them out; changing their mindset seems a better long term solution to me and I speak as one with Muslim friends and as a Catholic who has prayed in Mosques before. You cannot demonise a religion because of a few lunatics but having said that I'd say I'll see your Jihad and raise you a Crusade to this ISIS scum who appear to believe all people MUST pray in a Mosque. If you cannot accept my Church as I accept your Mosque then long term we can talk but short term if you are murdering people you cannot be permitted to continue this terrorism.

I don't think that was the point Sarah. The point was that wiping them all out is both a solution that works and the default solution, if you look at history.

Despite how civilized we think our society has become, we'd be shocked how quickly we will fall back to that kind of savagery. Actually, if history is any guide, our people will be too angry and committed to the savagery to be shocked.

We need to work on stopping this thing before it heads any further south, even if some of the steps might offend our delicate modern sensibilities, or seem "complex" or costly. We need to do this because the bottomless abyss lurks closer than we expect.

[S2]

"...then long term we can talk..."

With ISIS? Why?

ISIS will have it's way. If all agree they must be defeated then I ask by whom?

Hmmm...can anybody here REALLY see the Sunni Syrians Iraqis, Saudis, Kuwaitis, etc doing so? Nah. Neither the means nor the inclination. The House of Saud's grip is hardly etched in stone. Iran? They're certainly willing but then the ol' west will need to cede the Levant and it's coast, Mesopotamia and their oil and, oh yeah, they'll want the Arabian peninsula too.

Not that they're a guarantee of success nor that Iranian success doing so wouldn't be something of a strategic disaster of its own.

Then there's the largely Christian west.

Seems that either the Shias turn this into an internecine Islamic war to the finish or...

... anybody up for a crusade?

I suppose we COULD just acknowledge these things are inevitable from time to time and go about our business sans a few token airstrikes to salve the conscience and slake any thirst for blood.

[MIKEMUN]

In the ENTIRE HISTORY OF WAR, fostering the mutual understanding of the enemy served crap all. The ONLY WAY to victory is the complete and utter destruction of the enemy. We couldn't care less about Shinto temples when we bombed Japan into submission. And we also couldn't care less when Germans were freezing to death when we cut off their heating oil.

Genghis Khan couldn't give two hoots about Islam and even dogs were slaughtered.

It's easy. Too easy to repeat the Holocaust and there will be a point when IS wished they didn't push Christian Europe too far. The Russians are more than ready to commit genocide. The West was never that far behind.

I agree completely. The West has forgotten the purpose of war. You inflict maximum pain and suffering on the enemy so that they do not repeat their actions again. Until the West relearns that, this will keep happening on a larger and larger scale.

[MIKEMUN]

I feel that if Western governments do not do something, there will come a time when you will see open war on the streets of Paris and Berlin as people tired of bombings will fight back against their perceived enemy. It will be ugly and brutal. Citizens won't be always so tolerant. Already there are skirmishes around refugee camps. If people get really angry, then we will have fighting between those seen as Muslims and the original residents.

[citanon]

I agree completely. The West has forgotten the purpose of war. You inflict maximum pain and suffering on the enemy so that they do not repeat their actions again. Until the West relearns that, this will keep happening on a larger and larger scale.

MIKEMUN, if you actually look at the large wars of the past, victory is not achieved by cowing the enemy. It is actually achieved by remove the capability to conduct further action.

In WWII victory was achieved in Europe only after Germany lost nearly all men of fighting age, and even after the war those who were not killed were enslaved by the USSR for decades.

In China, during and after the Civil War the CPC executed millions of "class enemies", Nationalist counter-revolutionaries to remove the ability to destabilize the new order.

With IS we are facing a situation where we have an enemy that cannot be effectively deterred. To arrest the violence virtually the entire leadership of IS from small units on up have to be liquidated.

[Tronic]

MIKEMUN, if you actually look at the large wars of the past, victory is not achieved by cowing the enemy. It is actually achieved by remove the capability to conduct further action.

In WWII victory was achieved in Europe only after Germany lost nearly all men of fighting age, and even after the war those who were not killed were enslaved by the USSR for decades.

In China, during and after the Civil War the CPC executed millions of "class enemies", Nationalist counter-revolutionaries to remove the ability to destabilize the new order.

With IS we are facing a situation where we have an enemy that cannot be effectively deterred. To arrest the violence virtually the entire leadership of IS from small units on up have to be liquidated.

Take a step back and Assad will ensure a bloodbath of all Jihadis.. Don't know why local problems have to be turned into international disasters.

[Officer of Engineers]

Take a step back and Assad will ensure a bloodbath of all Jihadis.. Don't know why local problems have to be turned into international disasters.

Won't solve the problem. Assad may very well decide to do the same terrorist shit himself. Qaddafy did.

[citanon]

Take a step back and Assad will ensure a bloodbath of all Jihadis.. Don't know why local problems have to be turned into international disasters.

The thing is, Assad failed. That's why we are all in this position in the first place.

[kato]

You can have locals support, but the shooters are in charge.

In a suicide op that'd ensure a complete lack of leadership continuity and post-operational analysis.