Originally posted by snapper
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostRested on our laurels? We destroyed the last major Russian ally in Eastern Europe. What more did you want?
With regard to Russia in particular I repeat the Bukovsky argument that a form of Nuremberg Trial was required to show the Russian people the depth of the deceptions they had been living under so long - to chart the millions who died in the gulags and the abuses of the KGB. It was never happened - the criminals escaped and you wonder why they are in charge now?Last edited by snapper; 02 Aug 14,, 05:32.
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Originally posted by snapper View PostCertainly Sir and credit is due and forthcoming from me at least for your long vigilance. My point is that when the objective seemed done we effectively lost the peace,
What peace? We were so in awe of our military dominance that we went on a conquering spree. We dared to destroy the last remaining Russian ally in Eastern Europe ... and that was AFTER the Cold War ended.
Originally posted by snapper View Postallowing more and more corruption in our own systems to the point where politics has no connection with everyday people; we studied our tummy buttons - particularly in Europe - in the hope/belief that it was the 'end of history' and other rubbish and glorious new EU would solve all, it can't and if anything it is a hindrance.
Originally posted by snapper View PostHistory never ends and the maintenance of liberty requires unceasing vigilance; packing up and going home is never an option but it was believed we could. I am not blaming the Cold War warriors as much as the politicians but in truth we are all to blame. I mean it is either stupidity or false to act as if the whole Russo - Ukrainian thing came as surprise but this is only latest of recent failures. Certainly my criticism is directed more toward European nations, not least my own, more than American but the malaise was general.
Originally posted by snapper View PostWith regard to Russia in particular I repeat the Bukovsky argument that a form of Nuremberg Trial was required to show the Russian people the depth of the deceptions they had been living under so long - to chart the millions who died in the gulags and the abuses of the KGB. It was never happened - the criminals escaped and you wonder why they are in charge now?
I have news for you. The Ukrainians, Georgians, Belarousians as well as the Russians would have fought us tooth and nail. The Serbs were their brothers and we just clobbered them. You actually think they would have welcome us with open arms?
Wake up. The Ukraines ain't our fight. We're the cheerleaders but that fight is totally for the Ukraines to win or lose. I ain't going to risk one soldier for a country who was ready to kill us less 20 years ago.Chimo
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostWhat peace? We were so in awe of our military dominance that we went on a conquering spree. We dared to destroy the last remaining Russian ally in Eastern Europe ... and that was AFTER the Cold War ended.
I say your politicians, and mine, staying out of the Iraq War (at least officially) was very well in contact with everyday people.
But it is more than this - I mean going into Iraq and removing Saddam was not in itself a bad thing to do - nor was removing Gaddafi. The problem is the lack of understanding that if you are to fundamentally change a nation or a people you have to stay the course; it cannot be an 'in-out'. The US rejects Empire and the idea is unfashionable you have to stay and prove your methods of Government, your investment in infrastructure, your judicial system etc etc better for the average Joe than those they previously had - history proves this. The 'in-out', change the regime and hope they sort it out method leaves chaos and resentment.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostWe were looking in the wrong direction but that most certainly does not mean that we've became fat and lazy. The Russians couldn't do what we did in Afghanistan and Iraq (the Soviets could have but not today's Russians) and find me a Russian General who relishes a fight with American Brigade Combat Teams being recceed and flanked by Canadian and British Mechanized Brigade Groups while enjoying F-22 and F-35 air arrogance.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostIt's one thing to forget history. It is most certainly disastrous to recall things that never existed. You mean to tell me that you wanted us to march all the way to Moscow after the Kosovo War? You wanted us to liberate the former USSR?
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostWake up. The Ukraines ain't our fight. We're the cheerleaders but that fight is totally for the Ukraines to win or lose. I ain't going to risk one soldier for a country who was ready to kill us less 20 years ago.Last edited by snapper; 02 Aug 14,, 11:43.
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Originally posted by snapper View PostI recall British troops in Basra and Tony Blair telling us that Iraqi WMD could reach Britain in 45mins having "sexed up" the intelligence report but I would agree with your terminology of a 'conquering spree'; the problem was that it was almost entirely misguided.
Originally posted by snapper View PostWhen you speak of 'destroying the last remaining Russian ally in Eastern Europe' I presume you mean Serbia and though I agree the Milosovic regime was dangerous and abhorrent as a Slav and a Christian I have to question the enfeeblement of Serbia at the expense of a Greater Muslim Albania - now a great recruiting ground for ISIS etc. Look where this misguided 'conquering spree' has got us.
Originally posted by snapper View PostBut it is more than this - I mean going into Iraq and removing Saddam was not in itself a bad thing to do - nor was removing Gaddafi.
Originally posted by snapper View PostThe problem is the lack of understanding that if you are to fundamentally change a nation or a people you have to stay the course; it cannot be an 'in-out'. The US rejects Empire and the idea is unfashionable you have to stay and prove your methods of Government, your investment in infrastructure, your judicial system etc etc better for the average Joe than those they previously had - history proves this. The 'in-out', change the regime and hope they sort it out method leaves chaos and resentment.
Originally posted by snapper View PostNot all of us were looking in the wrong direction but that's beside the point now and I am sure they do not relish the prospect but let's face it - it ain't gonna happen.
Originally posted by snapper View PostThe Russians have broken the INF Treaty
Originally posted by snapper View Postprecisely because they the possibility of defeat in a conventional war though. I would welcome your opinion of Tom Nichols article here on this topic;The INF Treaty and Russia
Originally posted by snapper View PostNo Sir nor was the march on Moscow needed, merely making the opening up of trade and other avenues conditional on real reform.
Originally posted by snapper View PostOnly the smallest pressure was needed to convince Yeltsin to do in mid 1990s.
Originally posted by snapper View PostSo would you send troops to Eastern Germany, Poland or Romania? Didn't they want to kill us not too long ago? This is in my view a grave strategic error and I pray that longer term it does not cost us more lives in the future than an armored Brigade or two deployed now on the Dniepr may avert. With respect Sir it is not about what was the case 20 years but what might be in the next few years.Chimo
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Snapper,
Please accept my apology for my tone the other day...those are my beliefs but I did not need to express them in such an unprofessional manner.
But as far as your comment regarding the former Warsaw Pact...the Ostties were the Germans problem. The biggest problem we figured about the Poles, Romanians and Hungarians was could we keep them supplied as we counterattacked eastward with them as allies.“Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
Mark Twain
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostYour eval is wrong. Saddam tried to kill Bush Sr and used fake WMDs to deter attack while keeping real WMD programs dormant. The intent and the capability was always there. The oppertunity to execute was not.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostWhoopee Doo. So we've got a bunch of mercs looking for work. When was that ever new?
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostOh horse puckey! The Romans, Eygptians, Greeks, Arabs, Turks, and Mongols, and the Brits have all tried for 100s of years. Fuck up countries will remain fuck up countries no matter how many civilized centurians you put in.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostSays who? You?
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostNo. They have not. Horse puckey!
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostYou mean like we did to China after Tiennamen? Yeah, how did that work out for us? We stop buying their toys and what did they do? They lower their prices.
Yelstin couldn't get out of bed sober.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostAnd those countries jump through hoops to join us and in the case of Romania, they shot their commies. The Ukraines kept electing theirs.
Sir, with respect, you seem to believe and certainly were told by politicians that you won the war. You did not, politically that chance was missed. You won the battle for parts of eastern Europe at the time and for that you have the gratitude and respect of millions. The war however was not won, the system in Russia was not changed and they're back, not as strong or as menacing as before perhaps but the threat remains. If Ukraine falls Moldova will be next and quite likely a Baltic carve up or a further Caucuses move in the medium term; while all that your generation achieved will not be lost it is a mistake in my view to not regard it as threatened. That is a fundamental lack of vigilance in the mistaken belief that the war was won. The evidence was there for all to see but our politicians for most part chose to close their eyes to it. To paraphrase as conversation I had a few days ago with a US based friend; the most part of my generation is ignorant of the threats they face due to the "willful negligence".
Originally posted by Albany Rifles View PostSnapper,
Please accept my apology for my tone the other day...those are my beliefs but I did not need to express them in such an unprofessional manner.
I hope you forgive my tardy response due to work.Last edited by snapper; 04 Aug 14,, 09:51.
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Originally posted by snapper View PostMy point was that at least the British politicians were not quite as wise as you previously said. Intelligence reports were deliberately 'sexed up' for political purposes and this is wisdom?
Originally posted by snapper View PostThere is a difference between a 'bunch of mercs' and a bunch of fundamentalist Jihadis.
Originally posted by snapper View PostGaul was 'barbaric' before Caesar and Mesopotamia was 'civilised' when before the foundations of Rome were layed.
Originally posted by snapper View PostCertainly I have been one but many others have watched and said the same. The catalogue of cases from Abkazia and South Ossetia to Ryazan and Beslan and the murders from Litvinenko to Anna Politkovskaya and others, the 'gas war' strategy from Georgia to North Stream which the then Polish Defence Minister called the 'Molotov - Ribbentrop pipeline'... You do not need to be mastermind to read the signs of the bear getting upto it's old tricks again, remember what Mitt Romney said? I was not the only one to notice it. An excellent (but long) commentary of the political and ideological 'missed chance' to more or less today is David Remnick's piece with for US Ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul here; Vladimir Putin's New Anti-Americanism Well worth reading in my opinion.
Want an example? How many NATO planes are in the skies over Poland right now?
Originally posted by snapper View PostYou may be correct but the US State Department begs to differ; "The State Department’s annual report on international compliance of arms control agreements released Tuesday said the U.S. had determined that Russia is in violation of the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty that President Ronald Reagan signed with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev in 1987." US accuses Russia of violating 1987 missile treaty - The Washington Post
And I don't have to go far back to show that the American evals have been wrong. From the size of the Chinese nuclear arsenal to the BACKFIRE capabilities to the MiG-25.
Originally posted by snapper View PostThere was a perfect opportunity in 1992 when Yeltsin was being sued for banning the Communist Party, it was wasted. The guilty escaped and have returned.
There was no oppertunity. None.
Originally posted by snapper View PostNotwithstanding that against the odds they turfed out Yanukovych and been fighting off the Russians for four months...
Originally posted by snapper View PostSir, with respect, you seem to believe and certainly were told by politicians that you won the war.
Originally posted by snapper View PostYou did not, politically that chance was missed. You won the battle for parts of eastern Europe at the time and for that you have the gratitude and respect of millions. The war however was not won, the system in Russia was not changed and they're back, not as strong or as menacing as before perhaps but the threat remains. If Ukraine falls Moldova will be next and quite likely a Baltic carve up or a further Caucuses move in the medium term; while all that your generation achieved will not be lost it is a mistake in my view to not regard it as threatened.
Originally posted by snapper View PostThat is a fundamental lack of vigilance in the mistaken belief that the war was won. The evidence was there for all to see but our politicians for most part chose to close their eyes to it. To paraphrase as conversation I had a few days ago with a US based friend; the most part of my generation is ignorant of the threats they face due to the "willful negligence".Chimo
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostThe intel reports was NOT wrong. St Peter's slippers, how hard was it for Saddam to do a Halifax Harbour in the Thames? Hell, how hard was it for Saddam to just blow a hole in an oil tanker in the Thames and just spill its oil cargo? 11 Sept gave Saddam ideas. We went with the "sexed up" reports mainly they were easier to sell and within Saddam's capabiliities WITHOUT giving 11 Sept copycats anymore ideas.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostYou're right. The former is a hell of alot harder to kill.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostAnd the Franks came in after Caesar and the Turkic raiders couldn't care less. Who cares?
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostListen kid, the Russians ain't the crazy ones when it came to nuclear anhilation. Every single time, it was they who backed down, not us. So, where the hell did you get the idea that we would back down? We never did. Not once. Obama may be a coward but even a coward will growl when he knows he will win. And as of right now, we have not only titled the military balance in our favour, we've anchored it. The forces in Poland can smash anything the Russians put up and not break a sweat.
Want an example? How many NATO planes are in the skies over Poland right now?
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostThe Russians say that the system has a range limit of 500kms. Given their technical expertise and successes in the past, I believe them. Until the Americans can dissect the missile in question, they cannot prove the Russians are in violation. It's only speculation. And the Russian reaction to the accusation was one of "what the hell are you talking about?" They have openly publized the development of this system and not hidden anything.
And I don't have to go far back to show that the American evals have been wrong. From the size of the Chinese nuclear arsenal to the BACKFIRE capabilities to the MiG-25.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostWas Yeltsin going to line up every Communist against the wall and shoot them? Was he going to kill Putin? Did Putin even ran as a member of the Communist Party? There was no oppertunity. None.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostStill not our fight.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostNo Young Lady. We won and we won big. So big that you are now complaining that we have not won enough. We destroyed the threat to NATO and liberated the Warsaw Pact and drove the Soviets all the way back to their borders. All without turning three continents into a nuclear wasteland. We left the USSR to rott and it broke up into small pieces and they're now fighting amongst themselves for scraps. We couldn't imagine a better scenario. The Soviet Army fighting amongst themselves for Crimea, not Gibralter.
Oh come on, young lady. We didn't give a damn about the Ukraines. The Ukraines sided with Russia and Georgia and Belarouse against us during the Kosovo War. Now you're giving us grief for not saving our enemy from themselves?
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostThat "willful negligence" is wishful thinking by you and your ilk. The Ukraines was part of the USSR and sided with Moscow all up until recently. In short, you're blaming us for a problem that wasn't ours to begin with.
I hope also never to become an 'ilk' but, no disrespect to 'ilks', to remain a Lady.
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So Snapper, I ask you.
What, SPECIFIC, concrete steps would have the specific Western nations do?
Keep in mind that what is done can not be in violation of current laws or treaties.
What should we do that we are not already doing?“Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
Mark Twain
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Originally posted by snapper View PostWhile I can understand that 9/11 may have given many lunatics ideas we cannot possibly wipe them all out nor do we need to as they do not have the capability.
Once we dropped the first bomb on Libya, getting rid of Qaddafy was also a strategic imperative but then again, you have no perspective on Lockerbie.
Originally posted by snapper View PostThe Gulf Wars were before my time and I admit not my field but if the capability angle was 'sexed up' to give credence to the 'idea possibility' it is an abuse of the reality and the remoteness of fact to possibility is stretched.
Originally posted by snapper View PostWe could invade the world for ideas and by doing so possibly give them worse ones. Unwise in my view.
Originally posted by snapper View PostAlot more rare, rational and expensive also.
Originally posted by snapper View PostMy argument is that a failure to fundamentally change the system - the lustration in Poland etc (though it didn't go half as far as it should have done) enables the old system to creep back. Certainly with some countries or peoples it may take longer than others but unless you are ready to make that commitment then the 'in - out' programme is destabilising and can be ultimately counter productive.
Originally posted by snapper View PostFrom my limited experience I would agree that the bear is naturally a cautious beast but I would say the point is not how many planes we can put in the sky over Poland right now.
Originally posted by snapper View PostI do not argue with you Sir, merely report the words of the US State Department.
Originally posted by snapper View PostOn this I must disagree I am afraid. I have met people who were in Moscow in 1992 and read the reports of others. The cup was tippable and the truth could have flowed. The chance was missed.
Originally posted by snapper View PostWhere does our fight start?
Originally posted by snapper View PostWho signed the Budapest Memorandum that convinced Ukraine to dismantle the nuclear weapons under the NPT?
Originally posted by snapper View PostWould Ukraine re-acquiring a nuclear capability represent a breach? Since the Memorandum was evidently as worthless as the Munich Agreement in 1938 who could blame them? It is a dangerous precedent to set by all accounts.
Originally posted by snapper View PostSir you won a great and heroic victory with so little loss of life it was almost miraculous. Regarding Ukraine siding with Russia in the Kosovo War... Poland sided with Russia in the Cold War but not willingly. Ukraine has been occupied, corrupted, blackmailed and now invaded by Russia since 'independence' but now has a real chance to break free. Not our fight?
2) She took Russian money without a 2nd thought.
3) In Crimea's case, the people there couldn't leave the Ukraines fast enough.
Originally posted by snapper View PostCzechoslovakia was a "far away country of which we know little".
Originally posted by snapper View PostSir I merely maintain that a fundamental mistake was made; the belief that the war was won. If the war had been won the recent Russian invasions of Ukraine would not have occured.
Originally posted by snapper View PostI hope also never to become an 'ilk' but, no disrespect to 'ilks', to remain a Lady.Chimo
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostPeace? NATO has seen more war after the Cold War ended than all of the Cold War itself. And I'm talking official NATO missions, not the Coalitions that were used to smash Saddam out of Kuwait and to try to rescue Somalia.
What peace? We were so in awe of our military dominance that we went on a conquering spree. We dared to destroy the last remaining Russian ally in Eastern Europe ... and that was AFTER the Cold War ended.
I say your politicians, and mine, staying out of the Iraq War (at least officially) was very well in contact with everyday people.
I have news for you. The Ukrainians, Georgians, Belarousians as well as the Russians would have fought us tooth and nail. The Serbs were their brothers and we just clobbered them. You actually think they would have welcome us with open arms?
Wake up. The Ukraines ain't our fight. We're the cheerleaders but that fight is totally for the Ukraines to win or lose. I ain't going to risk one soldier for a country who was ready to kill us less 20 years ago.
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Originally posted by Blademaster View PostSo you tacitly admit that the basis behind US and NATO's movements was "Might makes right"
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostSo why do you decry Obama for doing what you would have done in his place?
New START is everything the Russians wanted.Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 05 Aug 14,, 17:29.Chimo
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostDon't you get it? Saddam was such a lunatic and he had the capability, the intent, and the audacity. I wasn't make a joke when I stated that it was a strategic imperative to get rid with him.
In the subcontinent we always look at it as a US strategy of controlling crude oil global prices.
ISIS is reported to be funded and supplied by the US/NATO.
Since the ISIS crisis blew up in Iraq, crude oil rates have shot up and affected dollar exchange rates in favour of the former.
Your views/ comments would be helpful.
Cheers!...on the rocks!!
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