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Originally posted by snapper
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"Poland never had Muslims as part of it's Empire/Commonwealth except a few Tatars who moved from Ukraine.". So, how would you know how they operate and how it is living under them?Last edited by Versus; 24 May 17,, 12:57. -
Neither Poland nor Ukraine have ever been totally under Muslim control. Poland has I think always fought them - from the Crimean Khanate to Varna and Vienna. The Ukrainian Cossacks at times found it beneficial to ally with the Crimean Tatars and at other times fought them. The Lipka Tatars have always been loyal - even in the Polish Bolshevik war there a Polish Tatar cavalry Brigade. Most have Polish surnames and very few do not speak Polish - I have not met one that I would think "hey up... here's some stranger". They are to all intents and purposes an indigenous Polish Muslim minority. They have their Mosque's; I think there are a couple in Warsawa and one in Gdansk, never seen one in Krakow or the south and not sure they are allowed in Częstochowa which is a bit like the religious capital of Poland where the Black Madonna is kept.Originally posted by Versus View PostLast edited by snapper; 24 May 17,, 13:09.Comment
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Amber Rudd criticises US for leaking Manchester terror attack information
Amber Rudd has criticised US security services for leaking information relating to the Manchester terror attack with the Home Secretary warning Washington it must not happen again.
A number of details including the identity of the attacker and the death toll entered the public domain in the immediate aftermath of the suicide bombing with the information reportedly leaked by security officials in America.
Ms Rudd described those leaks as “irritating” as she said that the UK had told its key security ally to stop releasing information which British police do not want publicly known.
She was asked on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme whether she intended to look at the issue of information sharing which may be working against the wishes of the police.
She said: “Yes quite frankly. The British police have been very clear that they want to control the flow of information in order to protect operational integrity, the element of surprise, so it is irritating if it gets released from other sources and I have been very clear with our friends that that should not happen again.”
Ms Rudd was also asked whether the American leaks had compromised the investigation.
She said: “I wouldn’t go that far but I can say that they are perfectly clear about the situation and that it shouldn’t happen again.”
The Manchester attack, which killed 22 people and left dozens injured, has prompted the UK terror threat to be raised from severe to critical - the highest level - which means an attack is “expected imminently”.
Investigators fear that the British-born bomber Salman Abedi, a 22-year-old of Libyan descent, was part of a wider network of Isil-inspired terrorists, including a bomb-maker, who may still be at large.
Ms Rudd said it is “likely, possible” that the attacker was not acting on his own and that Abedi was known to UK security services.
She also insisted that the security services have the tools they need to combat terror.
he said: “I believe they have all the legislative support that they need. We work closely to make sure that they do and in my conversations, not just today and over this incident but over the past year as Home Secretary, I am always mindful of making sure that they, our police, our counter-terrorism police have the necessary tools both in terms of legislation and in terms of money that they need.
“They have constantly reassured me that they do.”
Isil has claimed to have directed the attack but Ms Rudd said she was unable to confirm that was the case.
“We don’t have that information yet, no,” she said.Comment
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Mega rant!...I wonder how moderate his language would be now...Originally posted by tankie View PostComment
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There are practicing Jews in Poland and a functioning Synagogue in the old Jewish quarter in Krakow which I have visited. There is also quite a nice Jewish run restaurant/bar there with some lively music and dancing occasionally though largely the old Jewish quarter Kazimierz is known for it's somewhat 'bohemian' style bars and night life - the haunt of younger generation pseudo liberal and fairly affluent post Soviet generation Krakowians and students. Really nice atmosphere bars and quite alot of live music in small packed venues etc...
The Old Synagogue in KazimierzComment
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No idea of the total population in all of Poland. When I first went to Krakow as a child I seem to recall being told there were 30 odd practicing Jews; today there are over 1000 in Krakow and occasionally you will see them wandering around. There is still a healthy community in Ukraine - Minskaya was one. The fact is though the Jews and particularly the Muslim minorities in both Poland and Ukraine (and Lithuania) just never had 'jihadist' "lets go blow myself and some kids up' tendencies. They never were after establishing a 'Caliphate' but were overwhelmingly loyal to the Commonwealth and it's successor states such as in Ukraine now. We just never had the problems they have in the Balkans with our 'indigenous' Tatar populations who were happy to fight the Turks and their cousin Crimean Tatars - or today the Muscovites in Ukraine - with us. Different history and different situation.Comment
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By the last census in 2011 it was 8,000 Poles who "admitted" being Jewish, which given the rampant antisemitism in the country is a rather high number. Jewish communities in Poland had around 1700 members as of last year.Originally posted by snapper View Post
Most estimates run around 30,000 overall. Some more, some less. Back in the 50s it was still 70,000.Last edited by kato; 24 May 17,, 17:17.Comment
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I was speaking practicing Jews living in Poland as opposed Polish citizens of Jewish descent or Israeli students etcComment
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US officials leak more Manchester details hours after UK rebuke
Steady drip of details, which prompted censure from home secretary Amber Rudd, is hampering investigation into attack
US officials disclosed fresh details of the investigation into the Manchester bombing to journalists within hours of Amber Rudd warning them to stop the leaking.
The steady drip of details from the US – as well as from France – is hampering the investigation by British police, who are trying to control the release of information for operational reasons.
The home secretary reflected the frustration and dismay of the UK security services in a series of interviews on Wednesday morning. She described the leaks as “irritating” and said she had made it clear to the US that it should not happen again.
However, within hours, American reporter Richard Engel of NBC tweeted details not released by the UK. Engel said US intelligence officers told him family members of the the killer, Salman Abedi, had warned UK security officials about him and had described him as dangerous.
Engel also reported that US intelligence officials said Abedi had a bank card in his pocket showing his name, and his identity had been confirmed by facial recognition. He added that Abedi probably had help in making a “big and sophisticated bomb”.
The intelligence community has long been uncomfortable about revelations from its recent past made in books and articles, but the release of details of a live investigation on the scale of those by the US and France is a relatively new phenomenon.
It comes on top of Donald Trump’s release of intelligence to Russia that had been passed on by Israel, which had obtained it from an Arab country.
The leak of the British information, as well as demonstrating a lack of respect for a US ally at an emotional time, will have hindered the investigation, where it is essential to control the release of details.
UK counter-terrorism specialists said this week they needed to keep secret the name of a perpetrator or suspect for at least 36 hours to ensure there was an element of surprise in approaching relatives, friends and others.
American officials in Washington briefed US journalists early on Tuesday about the number of dead, confirming that it was a suicide bombing and – hours later – the name of the killer. The UK had not been planning to release the name on Tuesday.
The UK’s reluctance to identify the assailant was evident because it took hours after his name was circulating in the US media before Greater Manchester police confirmed it.
Rudd said: “The British police have been very clear that they want to control the flow of information in order to protect operational integrity, the element of surprise. So it is irritating if it gets released from other sources and I have been very clear with our friends that should not happen again.”
Although her language was mild, it is rare for a UK politician to issue such a rebuke to the Americans.
Adding an image of western security services as uncoordinated and amateurish, the French interior minister, Gérard Collomb, then told French television on Wednesday that Abedi had been in Libya and possibly Syria, information UK police had not disclosed.
Asked about the French leak, Rudd said: “We need to let the operation continue and for the intelligence services and the police to make what investigations they can. Any new information is of course welcome for them, but I’m not going to comment any further on the actual operation.”
UK security professionals are almost certainly appalled by what has happened, as will be their counterparts in the US and France.
Anger about the extent of the leaks is not confined to the UK. Senior members of the US Congress also expressed concern.
The top Democrat on the House intelligence committee, Adam Schiff, said he did not know the source but insisted it was not from Congress, as members and their staffs had not been briefed.
Schiff, who is a driving force behind the congressional investigation into the Trump campaign’s links with Russia, said: “We should have been very careful and respectful of the British investigation and the timing which the British felt was in their investigative interests in releasing that. That should have been their discretion not ours. If that is something we did, I think that’s a real problem.”
The UK intelligence agencies, he said, would have passed on information about the bomber and possible associates to see if the US had any further intelligence on them.
“If we gave up information that has interfered in any way with their investigation because it tipped off people in Britain, perhaps associates of this person that we had identified as the bomber, that’s a real problem and they have every right to be furious.”
Schiff said he thought US-UK intelligence-sharing would withstand the incident but over the long term the effect of leaks was likely to damage intelligence sharing with US allies.
Chris Coons, a Democratic member of the Senate foreign affairs committee, said questions were being raised about whether the Trump administration understood what it meant to treat highly classified intelligence responsibly.
He told MSNBC: “Our alliance with the people of Great Britain is one of our closest, strongest, oldest – and our prayers are with them, the families who lost loved ones in Manchester … We’ve got a very close intelligence and defence partnership with the UK and that news is troubling and it suggests that we have even more close allies who are questioning whether we can be trusted with vital intelligence.
“This is a key part of what keeps us safe, a global network of allies with whom we share intelligence and strategic and planning and defence resources … I am hearing real questions raised about whether this administration, in particular President Trump, understands what it means to treat highly classified intelligence carefully and responsibly.”
There are good reasons why the security services want to control the flow of information. They do not want to reveal the extent of what they know to those they are looking for – or how they gain that information.
On a practical level, the police would have preferred more time to search Abedi’s home and speak to neighbours without the media descending on the area.
One of the basic tenets of intelligence sharing is that other agencies do not disclose it. The problem is that those intelligence agencies, whether American or French, pass it up to their presidents, prime ministers and departmental ministers. In the past, that secrecy was respected.
After the leaks, it could be tempting for UK police and intelligence services to stop sharing sensitive information. But Britain relies so heavily on the US sharing its intelligence and benefits from intelligence, especially on counter-terrorism, from European colleagues such as France and Germany.Last edited by Toby; 24 May 17,, 21:14.Comment
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Yes and as statue in Kazimierz says they were all Polish citizens.Comment
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