Ukraine Elections and Political Developments

[troung]

The house put restrictions on our assistance to block the Azov militia from receiving any because they are Nazis.
http://m.jpost.com/Diaspora/Wiesenth...thering-440834

WIESENTHAL CENTER CALLS ON FRENCH MAYOR TO PREVENT ‘NEO-NAZI’ GATHERING
RINA BASSIST
Canada and the United States have blocked any training for the Ukrainian Azov recruits, which they apparently thereby designate as "neo-Nazi."
[...]
The Wiesenthal Center called upon the mayor of Nantes, Johanna Roland, to prevent the gathering by the Ukraine Azoz Regiment (formerly known as the Azov Battalion) scheduled for January 16.

According to Dr. Shimon Samuels, the center’s international relations’ director, the Azov group plans to hold a recruitment meeting at an unknown location in the western French city. A high ranking member of Azov – probably an officer, is expected to take part in this meeting organized by unidentified French far-right activists.

Samuels said the Azov group is “of neo-Nazi character.”

In a letter to the mayor, Samuels warned of “a troubling meeting to be convened in Nantes on January 16 by supporters of the Ukrainian Azov Battalion.”

He added, “We are disturbed by reports of neo-Nazi influence among the Azov recruits.




Indeed Canada and the United States have blocked any training for this unit, which they apparently thereby designate as ‘neo-Nazi.’” The authorities in Nantes confirm that such a meeting is being planned. According to a source close to the mayor (speaking on condition of anonymity), the city learned about this meeting last month. Shortly after receiving this information, Nantes authorities together with the police checked to see if any request has been submitted by the Azoz group to use a public or municipal venues.

This was not the case. For now, the municipality does not know where this meeting is supposed to be held.

“We condemn categorically any meeting or any conference of neo-Nazi or anti-Semitic groups, and we will do our utmost to prevent that,” the source close to the mayor said, adding that the municipality will continue to investigate the issue.

Samuels, speaking to The Jerusalem Post, emphasized that the Wiesenthal Center in no way wishes to take sides in the conflict in Ukraine. Its sole concern in this case is to distance French youth from the influence of such far-right groups. “Activists of the Azov Battalion are seen in YouTube video clips waving the Nazi flag. Some are tattooed with Nazi symbols

I am proud to have gotten that guy to register here (have some one set up a dummy registration) to tell me to show empathy ��

Ignore the junta part...

[snapper]

You just described the reason all those Russian volunteers head to Donbass too. They believe that if Donbass were to fall to the "junta" in Kiev; they would attack Crimea next and, with NATO's help, Russia proper itself.

Yea 'voluteers' on tanks and trucks with buks - or did the taxi driver suddenly learn how to use a Buk? You really believe that Ukraine would invade Muscovy? Even the Sevastapol base was legally leased and not threatened in any way until the 'little green men' showed up.

That's silly. Just as silly as to think that Russia is going to all out invade Ukraine; let alone fucking Poland. If Putin wanted to attack Ukraine with all he hasat his disposal, be would have done so already. It's been three years, you know.

Well Putin has invaded Ukraine. But do you think that if he got to western borders it would end? Could he hold it forever? No and he knows it.

[The_One]

Yea 'voluteers' on tanks and trucks with buks - or did the taxi driver suddenly learn how to use a Buk? You really believe that Ukraine would invade Muscovy? Even the Sevastapol base was legally leased and not threatened in any way until the 'little green men' showed up.



Well Putin has invaded Ukraine. But do you think that if he got to western borders it would end? Could he hold it forever? No and he knows it.

Well, you did say you are Polish, right? Foreigner. So, I understand if you are unaware of this.

But, in the ex-Soviet Union, there is a history, since the 90s, of regular men, some ex-military, others even just basic civilians, getting involved in various conflicts as irregular volunteers.

1992-3, Russian volunteers fought in Abkhazia, against Georgia

and Transnistria, against Moldova

Ukrainian nationalists also fought in Transnistria. The only conflict where Russian and Ukrainian hardliners were ever on the same side lol

Also back then, in the 90s, thousands of Russians fought as volunteers in the former Yugoslavia, in Bosnia, and Kosovo, and all kinds of places, on the side of the Serbs

This is why you see plenty of Serbian fighters now in Donbass, repaying the favor hehe

Many mainly neo-Nazis and such, like those RNE guys, also volunteered in Chechnya


Some Russians, like light-haired dude in the center here, also volunteered on the Armenian side in Nagorno-Karabakh


Finally, in 1999, when some Islamists from Chechnya (then outside the control of Russian authorities) foolishly attempted to invade neighboring Dagestan, local militias and volunteers from all over the countries rallied under the Russian flag to beat them back before the regular federal forces even made it there


As well, in 2008, thousands of irregular militiamen from Russia, ethnic Ossetians from North Ossetia, but also some Slavs as well, poured into South Ossetia across the border to, once again, fight the Georgians


Finally, since at least 2013, a Russian "Slavic Corps" had fought in Syria, on the side of Assad

This was a new concept in Russia: not VOLUNTEERS, fighting ether for personal ideals or whatever spoils of war they hoped to plunder and loo at the end (such as what happened in Georgia in '08); but professional mercenaries, paid to fight. They acted without approval of the Russian government, however, and, eventually, their leaders in Russia were arrested and jailed, and the Slavic Corps was temporarily disbanded.

They would later come back, this time with full support of the Kremlin, as the now famous and infamous Wagner Group

hehe Participating in some local cultural activity lol

Most Russian volunteers who have gone to Donbass are not, however, obviously, Wagnerites. Just regular guys (and women too) who believe they must help fellow ethnic Russians there against the evil Ukrainian fascists who would slaughter everyone there if they won (it is irrelevant whether this is the actual reality of things; it is what those people BELIEVE to be true, and this belief is shaped and backed by Russian government propaganda, yes)

And they sure as hell didn't start with tanks and such.

Lets go back to 2014. How did the Donbassians and volunteers fight back then?

They had no real armor.

Many were using hunting rifles and Molotov cocktails; they had some AKs, but ammunition was sparse and they had to conserve it


There were plenty of Middle East-style "technicals", i.e. pick-ups with machine guns


And then, you have shit like this, that's a converted, armored up GAZ, I believe


Ural truck reinforced with steel plates


KAMAZ dump truck mounted with a captured Ukrainian BMP without wheels

lol

And here, something straight out of the dystopian world of Terminator or Mad Max

haha

The Ukrainian forces, by the way, were in little better shape back then, they had plenty of improvised home-made armor too.

Here is an armored Ukrainian KAMAZ from back then

it was later captured by the separatists, who repainted it into their colors

lmao

Anyway, later, when Russia began sending them lots of ZU-23 anti-aircraft guns, it became popular to mount those on KAMAZes


Later, yes, came tanks, and more sophisticated anti-aircraft weapons

which did the job they were intended for, that is - counteracting Ukraine using its air power against the separatists, resulting in lots of Ukrainian aircrafts getting blow out of the sky

Sadly, that civilian airliner got caught up in the crossfire... In the US, I believe they would call that "collateral damage" (or is that only when brown people die, whose lives don't matter?)

Point is, Russia only gradually ramped up assistance to Donbass, as Ukraine ramped up attacks on them. At first, it was basically only volunteers and small arms. Then, when Ukraine began deploying real armor, tanks and APCs, that's when the seps got tanks too. When Kiev started bombing them from the sky, that's when they got anti-aircraft missiles and such. Basically, Putin has kept giving them just enough, to maintain a level fighting field for them. Not enough for a decisive victory, but enough to keep them from defeat either.

Because, as I explained before, I don't believe he wants to "win" Donbass. It's not exactly an amazing prize, you know hehe

But, politically, he also cannot just abandon them and allow Ukraine to defeat them. Because the nationalists at home, in Moscow, would go nuts on him...

I do agree that he himself put himself into this situation, by stirring up this shit to begin with...

[Toby]

Sadly, that civilian airliner got caught up in the crossfire... In the US, I believe they would call that "collateral damage" (or is that only when brown people die, whose lives don't matter?)

.

I still don't understand why it was deemed safe to fly a passenger plane through Ukrainian airspace during a period where various planes had already been shot down at various heights

[TopHatter]

A couple of things that have been observed by the Moderating Staff and other members, and need to stop:

Troung: Your flame-baiting accusations toward Snapper and her brother will end, right now.

The_One: Your pictures are lovely but they're flooding the thread and this is not the forum for Russian propaganda. Please conduct yourself accordingly.

I hate to drop the hammer like in such a harsh manner but this has all gone on for too long. Please do not try to debate these moderating decisions in thread or it will be locked.

Carry on with the discussion, thank you.

[PeeCoffee]

In June The One had resurrected a thread that was laying dormant.

I can well understand the acrimony that had existed in that region prior and resurfaced again in 2014 when the "West" (NATO) called Putin to end his aggressive posture.
By annexing Crimea by force Putin's gambit succeeded in calling the NATO bluff.

So here we are discussing the past couple of years though as members we should do so intelligently without hostility towards others...we should do so.

In reality we have all been guilty of anger but so it is when opposing sides discuss polar points of views. Sometimes it is more difficult to hold back 'the power of the pen' than it is to put down the sword and spear.

[The_One]

In June The One had resurrected a thread that was laying dormant.

I can well understand the acrimony that had existed in that region prior and resurfaced again in 2014 when the "West" (NATO) called Putin to end his aggressive posture.
By annexing Crimea by force Putin's gambit succeeded in calling the NATO bluff.

So here we are discussing the past couple of years though as members we should do so intelligently without hostility towards others...we should do so.

In reality we have all been guilty of anger but so it is when opposing sides discuss polar points of views. Sometimes it is more difficult to hold back 'the power of the pen' than it is to put down the sword and spear.

I am angry. Because Ukrainian politicians keep threatening my homeland, Crimea. Because they used artillery and missiles in Donbass, on populated areas. I myself know a woman, here in Canada, whose sister was killed in the shelling in Lugansk. When you listen to her talk about Poroshenko, you really learn what anger and hatred is. Mine is nothing, by comparison.

Yes, I saw the thread here about that "Minskaya" lady, and her death. I respect her sacrifice. But women have fought and some died on the other side as well. Equally courageous and honorable women. No different than her. This must be respected also.

[Mihais]

Should have not started a war.No problem then.

[The_One]

Should have not started a war.No problem then.

Shouldn't have made anti-Russian slogans on Maidan too. To begin with.

Btw, even though you hate me and my kind, I don't hate you Romanians back :)

My brother in law is Romanian, Moldovan anyway lol He is a good guy.

[snapper]

The_One; A. Muscovite forces serving with the Muscovite army are in Donbass now. Also their equipment, logistics and artillery and armour. They are directly commanded by the Muscovite chain of Command.
B. Maidan was not about Muscovy. It was about reform. I didn't arrive there until the 22nd Feb - the day after the shooting - but in all the footage I have seen I saw three or four anti 'Russian' placards. Is that a cause to tear up your commitments to a 'brotherly nation' and invade it?

[Mihais]

Shouldn't have made anti-Russian slogans on Maidan too. To begin with.

Btw, even though you hate me and my kind, I don't hate you Romanians back :)

My brother in law is Romanian, Moldovan anyway lol He is a good guy.

From where did you got the idea that I hate you?I just find your ideas ridiculous.
Hate is unprofessional.

Quite sensitive your nation is.Started a war for slogans.

Then you wonder why nations build alliances with your opponents.And how everyone "hates" you.

Piling mistakes over mistakes is not productive.

[The_One]

Enough about "brotherly". Whatever "brotherhood" there may have been, ended back in 1991. That's it. Ukrops always referred to Russians as "moskal", "katzap", etc. I myself knocked a guy's tooth out in high school, here in Canada, for calling me that. Spare me the bs. You Polyaks can try being "brothers" with them now. Enjoy lol

As to what happened back in 2014...

I don't agree with it. I don't.

That is, after Crinea. Crimea deserved to return to Russia. They had always wanted to.

But there was no need to incite Donbass to rebel too. At least, not if Putin had no plan to reintegrate them too. He just used those people and continues to exploit them. It's cruel and shameful.

But Kiev behaves little better. There were other ways to resolve the crisis in Donbass, than all out military force. Negotiation is the civilized way.

As it is, majority of people in Donetsk and Lugansk now feel mostly animosity towards Ukraine. And that's not Putin's doing either.

[The_One]

From where did you got the idea that I hate you?I just find your ideas ridiculous.
Hate is unprofessional.

Quite sensitive your nation is.Started a war for slogans.

Then you wonder why nations build alliances with your opponents.And how everyone "hates" you.

Piling mistakes over mistakes is not productive.

Whatever. I know where I stand. Crimea is with Russia, whether the damn Ukrops like it or not. Ukraine can go to EU and NATO and do what they want, nobody is holding them. Any regular Russian forces in Donbass should be withdrawn. Without a real long term plan from the Kremlin, there is no point in them being there anyway. The separatists have sucked enough money and weapons and other resources from Russia already. Let them fight their own battles by themselves now.

That's it. Divorce complete, property divided.

[S2]

"...There were other ways to resolve the crisis in Donbass, than all out military force. Negotiation is the civilized way."

Really? How surprising coming from you?

Not a good fit for the Crimea though.

"... Let them fight their own battles by themselves now..."

They'd lose to the Ukraine. Why do you think Ilovaisk happened? DPR/LPR were on their azz.

None of this happens without Russia.

[The_One]

"...There were other ways to resolve the crisis in Donbass, than all out military force. Negotiation is the civilized way."

Really? How surprising coming from you?

Not a good fit for the Crimea though.

"... Let them fight their own battles by themselves now..."

They'd lose to the Ukraine. Why do you think Ilovaisk happened? DPR/LPR were on their azz.

None of this happens without Russia.

You are right that I am no longer a good fit for Crimea and Russia. Having essentially spent my formative teenage years since Grade 8 here in Canada, changed me far too much lol I now embrace views that would be anathema over there... Support same sex marriage, for example, and equal rights for LGBTs in general. Plenty of my old mates back there would punch me in the face if I told them this in person haha

As far as the D/LPR, I am not so sure they would just lose to Ukraine. Their forces are very different from 2014. Even if regular Russian troops went away; they still have all kinds of sophisticated weapons now, and plenty of fighters. They probably would lose, yes. But it would be a pyrrhic victory indeed for Kiev, at a tremendous cost of at least thousands more of their men dead. I don't think certainly Poroshenko would go for it, as long as he remains in power. If some deranged nationalist takes over, then yes, who knows what will happen.