What other language are they going to learn? German? French? Ukrainian language aside, these are people with families across the borders. Hostile Moscows acts or not, there are people in Kiev with family in Mosow. You are not going to destroy those ties.
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostWhat other language are they going to learn? German? French? Ukrainian language aside, these are people with families across the borders. Hostile Moscows acts or not, there are people in Kiev with family in Mosow. You are not going to destroy those ties.Last edited by Ironduke; 03 Mar 18,, 18:54."Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."
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Originally posted by Ironduke View PostYes, there are, but I don't see something like that trumping irredentism and dead Ukrainians, which I stressed first, foremost and then twice, and I'm not really sure why you focused on the bit about language to the exclusion of those points.Chimo
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Those who fight for liberty continually and unrelentingly cannot in the end be beaten. Poland did not exist on a map for 150yrs odd but every generation had a rebellion until they were free briefly. Under the communists the rebellions were more frequent until Solidarity came along and won. It simply becomes too much trouble after a while.
While is true that many Ukrainian have family ties in Muscovy (as I have) it is also true others (again as I) have ties in Poland. Some Ukrainians speak Hungarian and Romanian and of course have ties in those countries. There are Jewish Ukrainians some of whom doubtless have family in Israel as presumably did Minskaya. So why should chose to make especial friends with those who have attacked us and not those with whom we also have ties but who have not betrayed us - but rather helped us when we needed it? No Ukraine will never willingly again become a Muscovite puppet. Doubtless we will elect other idiots - the choice is rather thin - but there will never be a 'Party of Regions' again.
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostTo stress that the Ukranians have more in common with Russia than with Germans or French and the current political climate will not survive Putin. It's not the first time wrecked havoc on its own people, the Napoleonic Wars, the Nazi Invasion in which Moscow induced scorch earth and famines caused untold sufferring on everyone and yet, they always came back together. To use your American-Canadian analogy, we're only independent because you let us.
They're also not isolated atop a continent bordering one single country with ten times their population and economy, on which they depend on for 76% of their exports. Ukraine does suffer from industrial and agricultural inefficiencies and until recently conducted much of their trade with ex-Soviet republics with similar inefficiencies, but that's not a permanent state of economic affairs.
Ukraine on the one hand borders Russia and Belarus with a combined population of 154 million people and a GDP of $1.6 trillion dollars. On the other hand, they border 4 EU states with a population of 73 million people and a combined GDP of $1 trillion, which are furthermore part of an economic bloc with a $17 trillion GDP and a population of 511 million people. Again, it's not as if there's no-one else to turn to. 12% of Ukrainian exports went to Russia last year. Over 40% went to the EU.
I don't buy into the notion that there's this inviolable bond between Russia and Ukraine and Ukraine is destined to become part of Russia again. We're 26 years on from the end of the Cold War already, and there were so many times in these last 26 in which it would have been far likelier to happen, and it didn't.Last edited by Ironduke; 03 Mar 18,, 21:07."Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."
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One intriguing possibility that has been raised is that Rybka Lady knows things regarding the alleged 'Trump tape' during his Miss Universe do in Moscow. She may know the ladies involved or even have been one of them as she is clearly in the same profession and working among the same clientele. I should remind you that CIA believes the existence of such a tape to be "credible".Last edited by snapper; 03 Mar 18,, 21:59.
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Originally posted by Ironduke View PostI don't buy into the notion that there's this inviolable bond between Russia and Ukraine and Ukraine is destined to become part of Russia again. We're 26 years on from the end of the Cold War already, and there were so many times in these last 26 in which it would have been far likelier to happen, and it didn't.
And 26 years in European history? That's a one night stand. I've met people who are angry because they lost a goat to his neighbour 200 years ago.Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 03 Mar 18,, 22:16.Chimo
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Originally posted by snapper View PostOne intriguing possibility that has been raised is that Rybka Lady knows things regarding the alleged 'Trump tape' during his Miss Universe do in Moscow. She may know the ladies involved or even have been one of them as she is clearly in the same profession and working among the same clientele. I should remind you that CIA believes the existence of such a tape to be "credible".
After all that you think a plausibly deniable tape is even relevant?
What more do you expect him to do? Be your fairy god Trump, wave a magic wand and make the big bad Russians go away?
If Ukraine wants even more American friendship, it's got to clean up, man/lady up, and kick some ass.
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostWhat I am saying is that sooner or later, both the Russians and the Ukrainians will want to be family again.
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Originally posted by citanon View PostGrow up snapper. This is a guy who got elected after "grabbing them by the p******", who just blew up 300 Russians in Syria with no f***s given, who us selling you javelin despite plenty of legitimate legitmate counter advice given by western military professionals like the Col, who is keeping sanctions on Russia in perpetuity and welcoming the new arms race with open arms.
After all that you think a plausibly deniable tape is even relevant?
What more do you expect him to do? Be your fairy god Trump, wave a magic wand and make the big bad Russians go away?
If Ukraine wants even more American friendship. Its got to clean up, man/lady up, and kick some ass.
I merely comment on what this Lady may know. As for clean up - certainly; many including myself are unhappy at the speed of reform. Regarding kicking some Muscovite ass we have done more of that than the US ever has.
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Originally posted by snapper View PostUkraine was part of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth longer than it was part of any Muscovite Empire and we have 'family' in common with all our neighbours.Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 04 Mar 18,, 01:27.Chimo
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Two Americans were indicted a few days ago in the Western District of Pennsylvania on FTA charges:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdpa/pr...d-ammo-ukraine
Two Charged in Scheme to Illegally Export Night Sighting Equipment, Firearms and Ammo to Ukraine
PITTSBURGH - One Michigan resident and one New Jersey resident have been indicted by a federal grand jury in Pittsburgh on a charge of conspiracy, United States Attorney Scott W. Brady announced today.
The one-count indictment named Michael Cox, 42, of Beverly Hills, Michigan, and Michael Stashchyshyn, 55, of Cedar Knolls, New Jersey, as defendants.
According to the indictment, Cox and Stashchyshyn conspired with others to export night sighting equipment, firearms and ammunition to Ukraine without the requisite license issued by the State Department. The items were purchased in the United States by Cox and others, and shipped to Stashchyshyn who owns a freight forwarder business in Parsippany, New Jersey. Stashchyshyn then shipped the items to an individual in Ukraine in violation of U.S. law and regulations. The items shipped are contained on the Federal Munitions List and are controlled by the International Traffic in Arms (ITAR) regulations. They are illegal to ship without a license from the State Department, which the defendants and their co-conspirators did not have.
The law provides for a maximum total sentence of five years in prison, a fine of $250,000 or both. Under the Federal Sentencing Guidelines, the actual sentence imposed would be based upon the seriousness of the offense and the prior criminal history, if any, of the defendant.
Assistant United States Attorneys Charles A. Eberle and Shardul Desai are prosecuting this case on behalf of the government.
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement/Homeland Security Investigations and the United States Postal Inspection Service conducted the investigation leading to the indictment in this case.
An indictment is an accusation. A defendant is presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty."Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."
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Originally posted by snapper View PostNeither is Muscovy.
Originally posted by snapper View PostI merely comment on what this Lady may know. As for clean up - certainly; many including myself are unhappy at the speed of reform. Regarding kicking some Muscovite ass we have done more of that than the US ever has.Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 04 Mar 18,, 16:33.Chimo
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostUkrainian, Belarus, and Russian historians say otherwise and I don't accept your pretend expertise on this.
Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostWe drove the Russians from Eastern Europe without firing a single shot and we just killed 300 Russian mercs.
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