German/Russian Baltic Sea Plans

[kato]

Btw, to get back to the original topic - Nord Stream.

The German Bundesamt für Seeschifffahrt und Hydrographie (federal agency for shipping and hydrography) has assembled a website (in English) which includes all official info on Nord Stream. This includes notifications, responses and comments of the affected Baltic Sea nations, as well as exact maps, applications by the Nord Stream company, and the relevant hydrographical/environmental scoping reports.

http://www.bsh.de/en/Marine%20uses/I...20Pipeline.jsp

It was last updated in May '07, but assembles this information in a good, concise form (which i'm really unused to from German Federal Agencies).

The Response Letters from the various nations (which are officially in regard to the environmental impact) are rather interesting, as they do show the official (political) policies of their respective government with regard to this.
For example, Poland requires an evaluation of alternative lines, including terrestrial (in particular "Jamal I" and "Amber", which runs through Poland), in comparison to the project, as well as an exact presentation of the potential impact of the construction phase on Polish Navy operation. The Swedish government hedges the "safety aspect", and wants among other things exact, detailed information of all aspects of the construction phase, and details on safety procedures within their EEZ with regard to the operation phase.
And so on. Makes for an interesting read.

[MrFirst]

Guys - all of you should understand one thing here: Putin is very very popular in Russia with more than 70% approval rating.
also please note that
1 It is an election Year in Russia - so Putin using saber rattling tactics to get more support for his future plans

You're contradicting yourself. 70% is more than enough to support any plans, so there is no necessity for Putin to use "saber rattling tactics".

2 Western Europe is not a fighter by any means. I don't want to offend anyone - but there are no people in Germany, France, Italy and Spain who will stand up and say something against this natural gas manipulation. So America is a knight who is going to battle all alone and also drags a dead horse behind him. Please guess - who is a dead horse.

I also don't want to offend anyone but the image of knight fighting against natural gas looks like silliness. There is not so many people in Germany, France, Italy and Spain which would wish to fight against Coca-Cola, for example. So, why these people should fight against natural gas?..

3 Russia will do anything possible to make Western Europe "addicted" to Russian gas and oil - it is the only leverage left to Russia in the world.

4 Russian people have certain mentality: they prefer to stay hungry but see the mighty rockets fly into space. So Putin is using it to his advantage. His very "feisty" stand against the west - brings him a Lot of support.

It's amazingly how western politicians and people do not see that in fact Putin is one of the great fans of the West in Russia. But more likely they just don't want to see that. It's much easier to eat bull stories about those very special and horrible Russians with their incomprehensible mentality.

[rickusn]

"It's amazingly how western politicians and people do not see that in fact Putin is one of the great fans of the West in Russia. "

LOL

Have you read any of his diatribes against the west?

ROTFLMAO

"Fan" my butt.

Its nice to to see though that some things never change and the Soviet propaganda machine is back in full force.

ROTFLMAO

But Putins words and actions are their for all to hear, read and see and they put the lie to your outrageous assertion.

ROTFLMAO

[JohnFlint1985]

You're contradicting yourself. 70% is more than enough to support any plans, so there is no necessity for Putin to use "saber rattling tactics".

I also don't want to offend anyone but the image of knight fighting against natural gas looks like silliness. There is not so many people in Germany, France, Italy and Spain which would wish to fight against Coca-Cola, for example. So, why these people should fight against natural gas?..

It's amazingly how western politicians and people do not see that in fact Putin is one of the great fans of the West in Russia. But more likely they just don't want to see that. It's much easier to eat bull stories about those very special and horrible Russians with their incomprehensible mentality.

With all due respect I don't think it is another case of Coca cola here. Natural gas is very important and valuable resource which cannot be substituted by anything right now - so Russian threats to open the vent on China and close it on Europe if anything is not up to "Russian standards" is a pure blackmail and manipulation. I understand That gas costs money and it is hard to get - so name you price and be done with it. Unfortunately it comes with the whole barrage of political influence BS that Putin is capable of. I am not against Russia selling anything - but if Putin thinks he will squeeze everybody the way he wants - it is a big mistake. The more he pressures Western Europe the more the resistance will be. Germany and UK is not Ukraine and Estonia - so it is a very big difference.

[glyn]

It's amazingly how western politicians and people do not see that in fact Putin is one of the great fans of the West in Russia. But more likely they just don't want to see that. It's much easier to eat bull stories about those very special and horrible Russians with their incomprehensible mentality.

May I point out that JohnFlint1985 was originally Russian?

[MrFirst]

"It's amazingly how western politicians and people do not see that in fact Putin is one of the great fans of the West in Russia. "

LOL

Have you read any of his diatribes against the west?

ROTFLMAO

"Fan" my butt.

Its nice to to see though that some things never change and the Soviet propaganda machine is back in full force.

ROTFLMAO

But Putins words and actions are their for all to hear, read and see and they put the lie to your outrageous assertion.

ROTFLMAO

First, maybe you think there are no reasons to criticize the West? No doubts about the West's infallibility and its priority over others?
Second, you mix up the whole West and USA. That's incorrect. All of Putin's diatribes mostly concerned the USA, not the West. The USA and the West are not the same.

[MrFirst]

May I point out that JohnFlint1985 was originally Russian?

So what? It doesn't change anything in my words.

so Russian threats to open the vent on China and close it on Europe if anything is not up to "Russian standards" is a pure blackmail and manipulation.

It's a trade. For example, Russia for several years tries to join the World Trade Organization. And when the US blocks it if anything is not up to "American standards" noone cries though this much more looks like pure blackmail and manipulation. If you want to avoid the "energy blackmail" you should use coal or wood or dried dung instead of gas - and that's all, but not to demand low prices like Ukraine did, or try to get any political benefits pointing that the gas seller is a kind of bad guy.
Maybe this is blackmail but this is the same language that USA speaks to Russia.

[JohnFlint1985]

So what? It doesn't change anything in my words.



It's a trade. For example, Russia for several years tries to join the World Trade Organization. And when the US blocks it if anything is not up to "American standards" noone cries though this much more looks like pure blackmail and manipulation. If you want to avoid the "energy blackmail" you should use coal or wood or dried dung instead of gas - and that's all, but not to demand low prices like Ukraine did, or try to get any political benefits pointing that the gas seller is a kind of bad guy.
Maybe this is blackmail but this is the same language that USA speaks to Russia.

I am not sure that membership in WTO is closed by USA and also I heard it so many times that Russia don't need WTO that I almost believe it.
The second part of your post clearly shows the way you prefer to do business. My way or the highway. Let's don't mix cutlets and flies together- as Russians say. If Russia wants to do business by selling gas - sure go right ahead. it is a legitimate issue here. If all that Russia seek is to create a a rift between Western Europe and Eastern Europe and also between these 2 parts of the Western World - it is a wrong policy. The more Russia will pressure Germans and show it's unstable behavior the more Western Europe will fill safe being closer to the USA. And by the way - no one in Western Europe demands lower gas prices. What people want and rather expect in any trade with anybody to have a delivery of things they are paying for - without additional interference.
With Czechs for example. Russian Chief of general stuff called on the Czech ambassador to come and see him in exactly on the anniversary of Russian invasion in 1968. He called him to deliver a "friendly message" don't build American radar or else.... Given the date it is hardly difficult to understand what is behind this meeting.
I am too old not to believe that anything that comes from Putin nowadays is done without a political massage behind it in a very fine print. So gas is only the tip of the iceberg. The real massage is: Russia wants to divide and conquerer. This is why Putin tries to divide Western countries and like you just did in your previous post - stating that West is not USA. Yes it is and our massage should be united with all western world.

[rickusn]

"First, maybe you think there are no reasons to criticize the West? No doubts about the West's infallibility and its priority over others?
Second, you mix up the whole West and USA. That's incorrect. All of Putin's diatribes mostly concerned the USA, not the West. The USA and the West are not the same."

First: Maybe you dont think?

Second: Russia chased France back into the US arms. But of course France doesn count now either? In fact only Russia counts nyet? And you wonder why the Czechs, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Georgia, Ukraine and Poland among others are running scared. LOL

Third: The US among other western nations and Japan has poured billions into Russia to dismantle its nuclear submarines and clean up its nuclear mess. While Russia builds new nuclear weapons and submarines to launch them and threatens to use them against anyone who so much as looks at them wrong.

Fourth: Stop blaming the US for Russian actions. First its false and second its ludicrous. "Maybe this is blackmail but this is the same language that USA speaks to Russia." : A bald face lie.

Fifth: Russia equating a defensive missile system to a nuclear armed missile system aimed point blank at another country is outrageous.

Sixth: Eventually Putins lies and shenanigans along with the Russians who supprt him will get their reckoning eventually. Right now they hold a cocked and loaded gun to heads of too many people. But eventually somebody will have the balls to call their bluff.

Seventh: I suggest that Russia back off but Im not holding my breath.

Eighth: What Germany can possibly be thinking boggles my mind.

Ninth: Unfortunately I smell war, dont want it but the Russians dont scare me one bit and Patton predicted it over 60 years ago. Intimidation wont work so again I reiterate that Russia should soon back off. You underestimate America if you think such tactics will work.

And why war? Because:

"The policy of Russia is changeless. Its methods, its tactics, its maneuvers may change, but the polar star of its policy, world domination, is a fixed star. "

[Adux]

"The policy of Russia is changeless. Its methods, its tactics, its maneuvers may change, but the polar star of its policy, world domination, is a fixed star. "

Sir,

And America doesn't have that intentions?

Adu

[rickusn]

"And America doesn't have that intentions?"


Thats correct and never has to boot.

And once again another lame attempt to blame America for the actions of others.

It outrageous, absurd and ludicrous.

The US didnt build the Berlin Wall and subjucate the peoples of western Europe.

No Russia did and subjucated the people of Eastern Europe but then I suppose Russian propaganda denies this or better yet blames the US again for their outrageous actions.

LOL ROTHFLMAO

In fact the US totally rebuilt Western Europe.

Ever hear of the Marshall Plan. But then I suppose that didnt exist either.

Totally rebuilt the arch-enemy Japan into a world class economy should say helped as I dont want to either dismiss or minimize the efforts of the people of one of our staunches allies.

No Russia has alot to answer for and their words and actions of late require retraction and rapprochment but again Im not holding my breath.

I was not happy with Bush over Iraq because I forsaw that there could be many complications and unintended consequences of the action he felt was necessary.

But if you think that he wont be backed by the vast majority of Americans when it comes to standing against Russian intimidation you are sadly mistaken.

Keep blaming America for Russias actions, its not only false, its the most childish albeit dangerous behavior imaginable.

And it will not stand the scrutiny of time and history.

[Feanor]

Sir,

And America doesn't have that intentions?

Adu

Don't waste your time. The guy knows next to nothing about Russia and out internal workings. He just likes blurting out Cold-War Era generalizations and ignoring evidence posted in response. Mr.First already pointed out, very accurately, that policies of the West towards Russia have not exactly been very pleasant either. And secondly Putin is nowhere near the simple figure he appears to be. I don't agree with him or his policies, but whether he is simply a KGB dictator, or actually trying to institute a capitalist economic revival and westernization is unclear.

[MrFirst]

If all that Russia seek is to create a a rift between Western Europe and Eastern Europe and also between these 2 parts of the Western World - it is a wrong policy.

But now we see that the US is trying to create rift between Russia and Europe. They always support anti-russian politicians even such insane like the current Georgian president. Is that wrong policy? I think that's just natural way, every great power do, did and will do the same. The USA is jealous about their European allies, they want to keep American influence in Europe and that's why the US is trying to not allow the Russian-European economic partnership.
Intimidation of Europeans by "Russian threat" is now the part of current American policy in Europe.

So gas is only the tip of the iceberg. The real massage is: Russia wants to divide and conquerer. This is why Putin tries to divide Western countries and like you just did in your previous post - stating that West is not USA. Yes it is and our massage should be united with all western world.

Of course West is not only USA. Still Putin discuss Russian-German relations with German chancellor but not with American ambassador in Berlin. Germany is not Georgia or Czechia, West is not USA.

[kato]

Question: The Baltic Fleet.

I know Russia touts plans for about 10 Project 20380 FFLs and at least 6 Project 677 Lada SSKs. Both with limited use to the theater.

Anyone know what else the Baltic Fleet is supposed to have in the medium future? Newer minesweepers (Project 02668)? Any smaller missile boats? Anything else?

[Feanor]

Question: The Baltic Fleet.

I know Russia touts plans for about 10 Project 20380 FFLs and at least 6 Project 677 Lada SSKs. Both with limited use to the theater.

Anyone know what else the Baltic Fleet is supposed to have in the medium future? Newer minesweepers (Project 02668)? Any smaller missile boats? Anything else?

Nope. The cry of alarm has already been raised several times that at this rate Russia will lose it's blue-water naval capacity.