US Encircling China?

[lwarmonger]

How would they resupply their Chinese allies? And why would we continue to trade with a country supplying the enemy? They lost trade with the US just on Iraq fallout.

They and the Chinese wouldn't be allied, and the French wouldn't try to resupply the Chinese. They would have been selling them weapons up to that point, however, and those weapons would make it that much more expensive for the US to win... thus weakening us to French benefit (a weaker US enables the EU to gain more influence in the world).

They are still in NATO though, they haven's withdrawn. I'm glad the HQ isn't in France. ;)

You are correct, I was wrong. However, they are really only a part of NATO in name only, as they are not in the command structure. Hence my misconception that they had withdrawn from the treaty itself as well. And the reason that they withdrew from NATO's command structure was because they felt that there was an anglo-American domination that was unacceptable (meaning that NATO wasn't French led ).

[Praxus]

They and the Chinese wouldn't be allied, and the French wouldn't try to resupply the Chinese. They would have been selling them weapons up to that point, however, and those weapons would make it that much more expensive for the US to win... thus weakening us to French benefit (a weaker US enables the EU to gain more influence in the world).

That's a sick way to look at the world: "The US is too rich, we need to supply the c chinese with offensive weapons to kill Americans to reck the world economy, so they're on the same level as us".

[Julie]

The French would not mind a bit to see the US slip out of superpower status. I would bet my life on it.

[lwarmonger]

That's a sick way to look at the world: "The US is too rich, we need to supply the c chinese with offensive weapons to kill Americans to reck the world economy, so they're on the same level as us".

It's the way the world works. You have someone you don't like, but is too strong for you to take on directly, you give someone else the means to do it for you. Then your rival will become weaker, and you will gain at their expense. We did it to the Soviets in Afghanistan by supplying the Mujhadeen, the Soviets did it to us in Vietnam by supplying the NVA. It happens all the time, and we do it to others as much as they do it to us. Realpolitik works both ways.

[lwarmonger]

The French would not mind a bit to see the US slip out of superpower status. I would bet my life on it.

So would I. Even as we rescued them from the tender mercies of the Germans and helped them rebuild their economy, they resented the hell out of us. Now we are competition, and they will do their best to take us down a peg. Fortunately, we have a competent military that doesn't think the best way of fixing the enemy is giving them too many prisoners to deal with.

[Confed999]

I still don't think it's a French conspiracy for domination...

[troung]

"Well, we really can't force anyone not to."

We have a harder time forcing another friend not to do business with them as well.

"The French would not mind a bit to see the US slip out of superpower status. I would bet my life on it."

This is just them (the EU) caving into their own arms companies who want sales.

[lwarmonger]

I still don't think it's a French conspiracy for domination...

I don't think the French are planning to dominate. But I do think they are planning to be a major player in a multi-polar world, and doing that requires the US to be reduced to merely great power (ie strong, but not dominant like we are now) status. Anything that weakens us brings them closer to that end. I don't think of it as a conspiracy, more as a long term goal... much like promoting democracy is a long term goal of the United States. And if our (or their) current interests coincide with that long term goal... so much the better.

[Ray]

It is not just the French, but also the UK who would benefit by the sale of weapons.

However, to believe that they would arm China with the most sophisticated weapons would be a trifle far fetched since it would not be in their interest to have a country that is more powerful than them.

I would go along with Julie that France is acutally cocking the snoot and no more.

[lwarmonger]

It is not just the French, but also the UK who would benefit by the sale of weapons.

However, to believe that they would arm China with the most sophisticated weapons would be a trifle far fetched since it would not be in their interest to have a country that is more powerful than them.

I would go along with Julie that France is acutally cocking the snoot and no more.

Well, we are each entitled to our own opinions, and I do understand your skepticism. However much of the rhetoric coming out of France, both now and in the past, seems to place them with a clear goal of becoming a power to rival the US (by leading the rest of Europe). De Gaulle was simply the most outspoken... much of France actions seem to combine mercenary self-interest with a great desire to spite the United States. France would not mind seeing the EU united under French leadership... I can say that much with confidence! What the rest of the EU desires is a different matter though.

And as for arming China... I cannot envision a situation where Chinese weapons would be employed against French (or non-Russian European for that matter) soldiers. There are a couple of scenarios, however, where such weapons could be used against American forces. Why wouldn't France arm China with some of it's best equipment? The Russians are already willing to sell first line fighters, and many of their tanks, at bargain basement prices. The French have to compete with that, and I don't think that they would have too many moral compunctions about doing so.

[Enzo Ferrari]

If French (or German) simply believe that selling advanced weapons to China, the greatest totalitarian in the world, in order to weaken American and "benefit" to the so called "intellectual" European will be simply the greatest retard thinking I've ever heard

[Franco Lolan]

I encourage you to read an article in the Current History journal on Asia of this year. Called "Rising Axis" or something of the sort. If you can't find it, remind me and I'll dig it up.

It's very good. Talks about connection between EU and PRC; particularly, France.

[troung]

From CDF

China, Indonesia look for ways to boost military ties

JAKARTA (AFP) Nov 05, 2004
Indonesia and China on Friday discussed defence cooperation, exploring ways for Jakarta to obtain new arms supplies as the Southeast Asian country struggles to rebuild military ties with Washington.
Visiting Chinese State Councillor Tang Jiaxuan said he had met with new Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, discussing broad bilateral issues including defence cooperation.

"We held talks on defence cooperation and we have agreed to increase cooperation and consultation on security," he told reporters.

The United States halted most military-to-military contacts with Indonesia after Jakarta's troops ran riot in East Timor during a 1999 independence vote. US legislators say abuses must be accounted for before ties can resume.

US officials have repeatedly expressed disappointment at the outcome of Indonesian tribunals to try military, police and civilian officials accused of atrocities linked to East Timor's violent separation from Indonesia.

Separately, Foreign Minister Wirayuda said Jakarta hoped from the talks China could "provide ways to help (us) rejuvenate our weaponry."

Tang, who is due to hold separate talks later with Vice President Yusuf Kalla, top security minister Widodo Adisucipto and foreign minister Hassan Wirayuda, said he was "satisfied" with his meeting with Yudhoyono.

President Hu Jintao's also extended an invitation for Yudhoyono to visit China, Tang said, adding that the two leaders could possibly hold separate bilateral talks at the November 22 to December 1 ASEAN summit in Laos.

Indonesia's relations with Beijing were put on ice after Jakarta accused the Chinese Communist Party of backing an abortive coup blamed on the Indonesian Communist Party in 1965.

In a sign of dramatically improved relations, former president Suharto, who rose to power after the coup attempt and outlawed communism in Indonesia, visited Beijing in 1991. Suharto stood down in 1998.

--------

South China Morning Post
April 26, 2005
Pg. 1

With eye to tanker safety, China is ready to help Indonesia rearm

Josephine Ma in Jakarta

China has offered arms sales and a raft of assistance to Indonesia in an attempt to cement its regional dominance and secure an ally for the smooth passage of its crude oil imports through the Malacca Strait.

President Hu Jintao , who began a two-day state visit to Indonesia yesterday, held talks with President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono and presided over the signing of a strategic partnership pact and a string of far-reaching co -operation agreements.

While Chinese officials have played down the countries' defence co-operation, Indonesian Defence Minister Juwono Sudarsono told the South China Morning Post they had signed a memorandum of understanding on defence technology which involved arms sales by China and bilateral military co-operation.

He said Indonesia intended to buy light arms from China. Details of the deal would be hammered out when he visited China in July.

"We are planning to establish a joint mechanism to discuss the possibility of defence and security exchange of views, including possible military supply. It will be further developed in my possible visit to China in three months' time," Dr Juwono said.

Earlier reports said Indonesia, which is moving to rearm, had chosen China and Russia for military co-operation.

Dr Juwono said China was an ideal supplier for conventional weapons. He did not put a figure on Jakarta's arms purchases, saying both sides would discuss prices in the next couple of months.

He said China could benefit from military co-operation with Indonesia because it would help safeguard shipping in the Malacca Strait - a key conduit for China's trade. Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia jointly patrol the waterway, through which four-fifths of East Asia's crude oil supplies pass.

It is plagued by pirates and experts have pointed to the risks a terrorist attack on ships using the strait would pose for the region.

Mr Hu also said China intended to increase annual trade with Indonesia by half, to US$ 20 billion, within three years.

China is offering financial assistance in the form of US$ 300 million in preferential loans, as well as US$ 1.5 million to aid the rebuilding of the Aceh region devastated by the Boxing Day tsunami.

"This demonstrates not only that Sino-Indonesian relations have entered a new phase of development. It will also promote the development of China's relations with the Association of Southeast Asian Nations ," Mr Hu said.


----------

So we are more or less losing them as a military ally of sorts. Actually kind of lost them since Timor and how wonderful that all went over those bloody 24 years after we partically talked them into going in

Congress would not allow Bush I, Clinton, or Bush II to drop the military sanctions. So Presidents across party lines didn't want sanctions and past Presidents let them get away with a lot (murder) post 1965. They have moved more towards Russian equipment to make up for the sanctions.

But things are not as rosy as they look with China either. General Ryamizard Ryacudu (head of the very important Kostrad command) wanted China to rewrite the propasal for military aid because he didn't want Indonesia to be a little brother to anyone. And plus when thigns go bad in Indonesia they go after the local Chinese.

But China is breaking out the imaginary encirclement we are trying to place them under. As soon as Nixon opened them the American encirclement was done and over.

[troung]

CHINA VOWS $1.2-M MILITARY AID TO RP

http://www.newsflash.org/2004/02/hl/hl101879.htm

BEIJING, March 3, 2005 (STAR) China has pledged military assistance to the Philippines for the first time, underscoring its rising influence in a region traditionally dominated by the United States.

The Philippines also said yesterday that a dispute with China over the Spratly Islands in the South China Sea had been settled and the two sides would work together to exploit the region’s oil deposits.

"Disputes and conflicts are all over now," visiting Foreign Affairs Secretary Alberto Romulo was quoted as saying by the Xinhua news agency.

"The South China Sea, instead of a regional flash point, has been transformed into an area of cooperation, peace and development," Romulo said.

China had promised 10 million yuan ($1.2 million or P66 million) worth of equipment, including engineering hardware, a source with knowledge of the deal said.

"We in the Philippines welcome China’s increasing role in regional and international affairs," Romulo said in a speech yesterday to mark the 30th anniversary of diplomatic relations between the two countries.

Romulo ratified Tuesday a memorandum of understanding on defense cooperation signed last November, an embassy official said.

China, the Philippines, Brunei, Malaysia, Taiwan and Vietnam claim in whole or in part the oil-rich Spratly chain of islands and atolls in the South China Sea.

All the claimants, except Brunei, have troops stationed in the area and there have been deadly clashes in the past.

The most serious incident occurred in 1988, when Chinese and Vietnamese naval forces clashed at Johnson Reef, resulting in the deaths of 78 Vietnamese navy personnel.

Last year, China and the Philippines agreed to carry out a joint study of the mineral reserves in the area, sparking concern from the other claimants.

Vietnam warned that the joint study could violate a 2002 code of conduct signed by the claimants to refrain from actions that could disturb the volatile peace in the islands.

But Romulo indicated that matters had been settled, saying that his comment on disputes and conflicts "refers not only to China and the Philippines, but also others which claim the South China Sea territory."

In a statement issued by the Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) in Manila, Romulo said he told Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao "that we are determined to resolve the issue of the South China Sea through peaceful dialogue. I added that we also hope to negotiate and conclude a code of conduct in the South China Sea."

He said Sino-Filipino ties were at an all-time high and stressed the priority of economic development in the region.

"If there are conflicts, whether in the South China Sea, the Korean peninsula or Taiwan Strait, it is important for the countries in the region to bind together to have meaningful dialogue in the diplomacy," he was quoted as saying. "If we can preserve peace in the region, therefore we can get on with economic development."

Romulo also met with Chinese Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxiang. During this meeting, Romulo said he "expressed our strong support for the efforts of China to address the nuclear issue on the Korean peninsula."

He and Zhaoxiang "also discussed a new area in our cooperation, that is, defense and military cooperation." Romulo heads to Thailand today before proceeding to Malaysia on Friday.

"China is the new big brother... but the US (United States) factor still remains," the source, who requested anonymity, told Reuters.

American troops pulled out of the Philippines, a former US colony, in 1992. But the two countries maintain close ties and US troops recently helped train Filipino forces in battling Muslim guerrillas in the south.

The US will remain "the dominant player" in the region, said Shi Yinhong, who teaches international relations at Beijing’s Renmin University.

In addition to military aid, China — until recently a recipient of foreign aid in the wake of natural disasters — had donated $250,000 to victims of typhoons that hit the Philippines last November and December, a Philippine Embassy newsletter said.

Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao told Romulo on Tuesday he hoped both countries would improve cooperation, Xinhua news agency reported.

China exported its Communist revolution to Asian neighbors, including the Philippines, in the 1960s, but bilateral relations have improved in recent years and Chinese President Hu Jintao will visit the Philippines in April.

China and the Philippines will hold a security dialogue in Manila as early as April, a diplomatic source said.

When President Arroyo visited Beijing last September, a landmark agreement was signed enabling national oil companies from both countries to conduct marine seismic tests near disputed islands in the South China Sea.

China is also poised to invest in the Philippine mining industry.

A Philippine delegation, led by the environment and trade secretaries, held a mining road show in Beijing in January and said it had won investment pledges in nickel and other mining projects worth $1.3 billion. The Philippines posted a trade surplus of $4.79 billion with China last year, with exports jumping 43.6 percent to $9.06 billion and imports surging 38 percent to $4.27 billion.

Thanks to Chinese technological support, the Philippines will attain rice and corn self-sufficiency by 2006 and 2010. – AFP, Pia Lee-Brago

----
Further ending that "encirclement"...

[Confed999]

CHINA VOWS $1.2-M MILITARY AID TO RP

http://www.newsflash.org/2004/02/hl/hl101879.htm

BEIJING, March 3, 2005 (STAR) China has pledged military assistance to the Philippines for the first time, underscoring its rising influence in a region traditionally dominated by the United States.

Wow! 1.2 million! Wait... They got, like, just shy of 4 billion from the US last year. ;)