Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • India must remain careful

    After escalatory rhetoric, and more important, aggressive actions, a process to slowly, in a calibrated manner, defuse the tensions at the Line of Actual Control (LAC), has commenced. China’s slight withdrawal of troops from Galwan, and the Hot Springs Area, and what appears to be a minor thinning of its presence at Finger 4 in Pangong-Tso, is a positive development. With a two-hour-long conversation between National Security Adviser Ajit Doval and Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi — the designated special representatives on border talks — there appears to be a degree of convergence between the two countries on the need to first disengage, and eventually de-escalate, from the current stand-off.

    There are structural reasons why disengagement makes sense for both countries. China was solely responsible for transgressing across LAC. Even the finest scholars who study China have not been able to offer a fully rounded explanation on why Beijing has behaved the way it did. Is it linked to its pattern of aggression elsewhere? Is it to overcome domestic legitimacy issues Xi Jinping may be confronting? Is it a message to India to not cosy up to the United States? Is it to halt India’s border infrastructure development? Is it to gain tactical advantage to secure Aksai Chin and the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor? Beijing may have been motivated by all these factors, but the fact is, even for a rising power, its actions defied rational calculation, for it has alienated India, and Indian public opinion entirely, throwing the entire relationship — of which China too has been a beneficiary — off-gear. It will also push India in the very direction Beijing does not want it to move. If Beijing is now waking up to what is a miscalculation, that is wise. New Delhi too does not want conflict. It was left with no choice but to respond aggressively to Chinese incursions and defend its territorial integrity. But given the internal economic weaknesses, the Covid-19 challenge, the gaps in military preparation, and the costs of any conflict, peace is, of course, the most desirable option.

    But this seeming thaw needs to be accompanied with two caveats. One is immediate. As the Indian establishment has made clear, every step of the disengagement process will be carefully monitored and verified. China has violated past understandings; its statement contained a hint of continued belligerence; and there doesn’t appear to be a deal on it stepping back from the finger area in Pangong-Tso. India must ensure complete restoration of status quo ante. The second is medium-term. Irrespective of a possible de-escalation, it cannot be business-as-usual. India must ramp up its capabilities, deepen external partnerships, reduce dependence on China, and remain wary, for this is possibly the beginning, not the end, of an era of a new strategic competition.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

    Comment


    • #1. What has this confrontation done for Xi?
      #2. Do we see an Indian missile test with a range of 8K kms that covers the whole of China?
      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        Why didn't the Chinese follow the same policy with us ?
        Stupid idiotic nationalistic pride.
        Chimo

        Comment


        • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
          Stupid idiotic nationalistic pride.
          I'm thinking had we been more aggressive with them in the 50s, things would have been better.

          Am ignoring the administration we had at the time did its best to neuter the military because Nehru was afraid of a coup.

          The Russians you said did as they pleased. Not a squeak from China.

          The only language these people understand is force.

          That can be difficult to do in a democracy. Look at the heat Trump got because he offed Solemani.

          The opposition demanded proof that Solemani was an imminent threat.

          Exactly, the kind of crap i expect in India. It was a surprise to see it in the US.

          To do what Oracle says ie shoot 50-100 will get the govt slammed for war mongering (!)

          Though i think after Jun 15 there may be less opposition to the idea.
          Last edited by Double Edge; 08 Jul 20,, 12:43.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
            Right now, I think we started this, and what happened could have been prevented had the Chinese not been so adamant and expansionist in their claims.
            Questions were asked why Col. Babu did not just return back after finding the Chinese did not clear out as agreed earlier in the day.

            Flag the non-compliance with his superiors and let them deal with it.

            Instead of dismantling the tent and whatever came after.

            James Palmer says in a tense situation like that these things can happen.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              The Russians you said did as they pleased. Not a squeak from China.
              They also had 450,000 troops, 5000 tanks, 2000 aircrafts, 11,000 artillery pieces, 450 nukes on the border with China. There's another 3 million troops and umpteen 1000s of planes, tanks, and guns, not to mention 40,000 more nukes Moscow could throw at China if they don't tangle with the West. Don't think a today India could come close to doing the same to China. You're not going to scare China one single bit.

              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              The only language these people understand is force.
              There's one problem with that. The Chinese could bring a lot more to bear than India. Let's be real here. India has zero hope of winning an arms race with China and frankly, there's a lot more things you need to spend money on. The point of defence is to ensure the protection of your people's lives and lifestyles; not to bankrupt yourself into keeping up with the Jones/Zhongs just so that your fence is big as his. At some point, you have to decide are these rocks really necessary to spend money on.
              Chimo

              Comment


              • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                There's one problem with that. The Chinese could bring a lot more to bear than India. Let's be real here. India has zero hope of winning an arms race with China and frankly, there's a lot more things you need to spend money on. The point of defence is to ensure the protection of your people's lives and lifestyles; not to bankrupt yourself into keeping up with the Jones/Zhongs just so that your fence is big as his.
                Hmmm.

                Sir, our politicians give the basic minimum to our forces to fight with. India won't go bankrupt chasing Zhongs. We will maintain a deterrent posture. Build an arsenal that makes China think a 100 times. Deterrence is not war-fighting, w.r.t China.

                At some point, you have to decide are these rocks really necessary to spend money on.
                Yes.

                Dis-integration of Pakistan is a must, else terrorism will continue unabated. There is no other way to inflict costs on Pakistan, while staring down the dragon. Tell me , Colonel, any other way to stop terrorism completely from Pakistan. I will be happy to shoot off a letter to the PMO with your recommendations.
                Last edited by Oracle; 08 Jul 20,, 05:43.
                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                  Questions were asked why Col. Babu did not just return back after finding the Chinese did not clear out as agreed earlier in the day.

                  Flag the non-compliance with his superiors and let them deal with it.

                  Instead of dismantling the tent and whatever came after.

                  James Palmer says in a tense situation like that these things can happen.
                  So, Bihar Regiment boys went prepared. This had to happen, night or day, summer or winter. PLA will be back though. We need to watch our back, and those terrorists on our western border.
                  Last edited by Oracle; 08 Jul 20,, 05:46.
                  Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                  Comment


                  • Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot 2020-07-08 at 09.49.37.png
Views:	2
Size:	73.7 KB
ID:	1479105

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot 2020-07-08 at 09.49.50.png
Views:	2
Size:	80.8 KB
ID:	1479106
                    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                      Sir, our politicians give the basic minimum to our forces to fight with. India won't go bankrupt chasing Zhongs. We will maintain a deterrent posture. Build an arsenal that makes China think a 100 times. Deterrence is not war-fighting, w.r.t China.
                      If you're talking about nukes, nukes does not prevent conventional war. The Kargil War should have told you that. Not only that, Soviet-US (Korean War), Sino-Soviet, Soviet-Israeli, Sino-US (Vietnam War), Soviet-South Africa (Nambia). Best keep budgeting for soldiers to keep freezing their butts off.

                      Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                      Dis-integration of Pakistan is a must, else terrorism will continue unabated. There is no other way to inflict costs on Pakistan, while staring down the dragon. Tell me , Colonel, any other way to stop terrorism completely from Pakistan. I will be happy to shoot off a letter to the PMO with your recommendations.
                      Fake a Martian Invasion so that Pakistan have no choice but to join India for mutual defence.
                      Chimo

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                        Stupid idiotic nationalistic pride.
                        15 countries in the list

                        Last edited by Double Edge; 08 Jul 20,, 13:29.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                          They also had 450,000 troops, 5000 tanks, 2000 aircrafts, 11,000 artillery pieces, 450 nukes on the border with China. There's another 3 million troops and umpteen 1000s of planes, tanks, and guns, not to mention 40,000 more nukes Moscow could throw at China if they don't tangle with the West. Don't think a today India could come close to doing the same to China. You're not going to scare China one single bit.
                          Same dilemma confronts China today as it did back then. Whether they want two hostile fronts ?

                          We could have teamed with the Soviets back then and put pressure on them.

                          In 1962 China's economy was two thirds that of India.

                          Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                          There's one problem with that. The Chinese could bring a lot more to bear than India. Let's be real here. India has zero hope of winning an arms race with China and frankly, there's a lot more things you need to spend money on. The point of defence is to ensure the protection of your people's lives and lifestyles; not to bankrupt yourself into keeping up with the Jones/Zhongs just so that your fence is big as his. At some point, you have to decide are these rocks really necessary to spend money on.
                          We don't have to get into an arms race with them. Just enough to give them doubt whether they could win against us.

                          To march into Tibet we'd need three mountain strike corps. We've yet to complete the first.

                          If India does not stand up to them then who else will.

                          If India does not believe in its capabilities then who else will.
                          Last edited by Double Edge; 08 Jul 20,, 13:43.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                            Dis-integration of Pakistan is a must, else terrorism will continue unabated. There is no other way to inflict costs on Pakistan, while staring down the dragon. Tell me , Colonel, any other way to stop terrorism completely from Pakistan. I will be happy to shoot off a letter to the PMO with your recommendations.
                            The obstacle here is domestic support for such a policy. Nobody wants constant tension.

                            If people are gung ho the first week of such an operation, we never know whether they will say let's stop in the second week.

                            So the threshold to take any offensive action is fairly high.

                            All Paks & China have to do is operate below this threshold.

                            Occasionally they get it wrong.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                              If you're talking about nukes, nukes does not prevent conventional war. The Kargil War should have told you that. Not only that, Soviet-US (Korean War), Sino-Soviet, Soviet-Israeli, Sino-US (Vietnam War), Soviet-South Africa (Nambia). Best keep budgeting for soldiers to keep freezing their butts off.
                              I was thinking along the lines of conventional deterrence.

                              Fake a Martian Invasion so that Pakistan have no choice but to join India for mutual defence.
                              You're joking.
                              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                The obstacle here is domestic support for such a policy. Nobody wants constant tension.

                                If people are gung ho the first week of such an operation, we never know whether they will say let's stop in the second week.

                                So the threshold to take any offensive action is fairly high.

                                All Paks & China have to do is operate below this threshold.

                                Occasionally they get it wrong.
                                ^ That can be thought through.

                                I was thinking what about terrorist outfits in the NE, are they going to get active again?
                                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X