U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone : B52 flies over

[ajhax]

It's not even China's ADZ, it's ADIZ, one letter, big difference.

This surprises me too. It's just an identification zone. It's not like China is going to blow an aircraft if it passes through the region. They are just going to ask "who is this flying". What is the fuss about? And why China has decided to do it now?

[cdude]

James Fallows just had an article How to Think About the Chinese Air-Defense News - James Fallows - The Atlantic

And here is the ADIZ

[gf0012-aust]

This surprises me too. It's just an identification zone. It's not like China is going to blow an aircraft if it passes through the region. They are just going to ask "who is this flying". What is the fuss about? And why China has decided to do it now?

because: (from Medcalf, The Interpreter)

"An ADIZ is not a provocative or negative step in itself; indeed, it can be in the interests of stability and security of the nation enforcing it. Many countries have such zones already, including Japan, South Korea and the US, which started the whole trend decades ago.

If China’s new zone did not include disputed maritime territory, if its requirements for compliance applied only to aircraft heading into Chinese airspace, and if neighbours like Japan and South Korea had been consulted ahead of the announcement, then there would be little or nothing for others to object to. Indeed, it could have been part of a wider strategy of cooperation to reduce maritime security risks in North Asia.

Instead, there are several things wrong with China's declared position:

It is a unilateral step, announced suddenly and apparently without consultation with two countries whose civilian and military aircraft will be most affected, the US and Japan.
It includes a contested maritime area, notably the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands, and thus can be seen as a deliberate effort to change the status quo, even a provocation.
Its ‘rules’ demanding that aircraft identify themselves and obey Chinese direction on flight paths seem to apply to all aircraft in the zone and not only aircraft en route to China. This conflicts with the basic early warning and air-traffic control purposes of an ADIZ, and with longstanding Pentagon regulations advising US military aircraft to comply with a foreign ADIZ only when they flying on a course into that country’s airspace, not when they are simply in transit or on patrol.
It looks like a pretext for one of two undesirable security outcomes. If foreign aircraft now regularly obey the new Chinese rules, we will see precedents set for the unilateral expansion of Chinese authority over contested maritime territory. Alternately, if foreign aircraft contest or ignore the Chinese zone and a dangerous or deadly incident occurs (such as a collision or a forceful encounter), then China will have prepared the way to absolve itself of legal or moral blame, making it easier to use the incident as a justification to escalate the crisis if China so chooses.
If the motive for establishing the ADIZ was solely or genuinely about the prevention of risky incidents, then China’s bureaucratic energies would have been better spent on reaching out and negotiating with Japan and America to craft effective ‘confidence-building measures’: communications protocols, hotlines and ‘rules of the road’, or incidents-at-sea (and in-the-air) agreements.

Instead, tension has become the new normal in the East China Sea, and it won’t end here. It was striking that the official Chinese announcement of the new zone included these words:

China will establish other Air Defense Identification Zones at the right moment after necessary preparations are completed.

It sounds like we should expect another such zone over a substantial part of the South China Sea before too long"

[tbm3fan]

This surprises me too. It's just an identification zone. It's not like China is going to blow an aircraft if it passes through the region. They are just going to ask "who is this flying". What is the fuss about? And why China has decided to do it now?

I was about to say that if countries actually started to identify their flights, as per Chinese request, then a year or so from now China would use that as de facto recognition of her claim and case closed. She has done that before.

[cdude]

Source: BBC

As the "most peaceful" country since WWII, Japan has had a ADIZ that is curiously close to its neighbors. The solid blue line. Guess what, now China draws an equally close ADIZ to Japan. I don't see what makes China less peaceful.

[Inst]

And 65 years ago Dai Li's agents tracked and killed the families of the pilots who flew that general's last flight. When I read that I had a glimpse of the 2001 incident and the loot the Chinese got from the US aircraft.

This incident is different from that of 2001.If the Chinese try to intercept future flights,an escort can be added.The Chinese are in no position to do anything but politely ask the Americans to leave and lose face when they'll refuse.

I'll defer to Xinhui and the Colonel on why the Chinese established this policy in the first place.

There's nothing stopping the Chinese from dispatching unarmed fighter aircraft to "escort" US bombers on their flight path. If you attack the fighters with missiles; you're firing on unarmed aircraft. If you do so in close range; the fighters can hide behind the bombers and cause a shootdown by your own aircraft.

[Officer of Engineers]

Doesn't matter if Chinese planes are armed or not, there are rules to interception over disputed air space.

[Inst]

Which would have given the United States rights to shoot them down? Pretty obvious that the B-52s were shadowed by F-22s.

[Officer of Engineers]

We have not shot down any BEARS when they approach our airspace. International airspace is still international airspace. The Soviets even practiced target runs at CVBGs and F-14s practiced interceptions but as long as no weapons lock were in place, neither side can initiate hostile actions.

[Oracle]

Japan, South Korean military planes defy China's new defence zone

TOKYO/SEOUL: Japanese and South Korean military aircraft flew through disputed air space over the East China Sea without informing China, officials said on Thursday, challenging a new Chinese air defence zone that has increased regional tensions and sparked concerns of an unintended clash.

The move came after Tokyo's close ally Washington defied China's demand that airplanes flying through its unilaterally announced zone identify themselves to Chinese authorities, flying two unarmed B-52 bombers over the islands on Tuesday without informing Beijing.

Tensions have ratcheted up since Beijing's weekend announcement of the zone that includes the skies over islands at the heart of a feud between Japan and China, and its demand that planes flying in the area first notify Chinese authorities.

Japan and the United States have sharply criticized the move, which some experts said was aimed not only at chipping away at Tokyo's control of the islands, known as the Senkaku in Japan and the Diaoyu in China, but also at challenging US dominance in the region.

The United States does not take a position on the sovereignty of the islands but recognizes Tokyo's administrative control and has assured Japan that the US-Japan security pact covers them.

The developments are expected to dominate US vice president Joe Biden's visit to Japan, China and South Korea next week.

Also on Thursday, China rejected South Korea's demand for the repeal of the zone, but appeared to soften its demand that commercial aircraft tell its military authorities of any plans to transit the area. Japan's two biggest airlines have already begun defying that order.

"The East China Sea Air Defence Identification zone is not aimed at normal international flights. We hope that relevant countries' airlines can proactively cooperate, so there is more order and safety for flights," China's Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang told reporters.

Japan's chief cabinet secretary Yoshihide Suga said naval ships and patrol planes have been operating in the East China Sea and would continue to do so.

"They are carrying out surveillance activity as before in the East China Sea, including the zone," Suga told a news conference, adding there has been no particular response from China. "We are not going to change this (activity) out of consideration to China," he added.

BEIJING REJECTS SEOUL'S DEMAND

A South Korean official also said a navy reconnaissance plane had flown over a submerged rock in the area claimed by both Beijing and Seoul, and that the flights would continue.

The rock, called Ieodo in Korea and Suyan Rock in China, is controlled by South Korea, which maintains a maritime research station built on it.

Asked about the South Korean flight, Chinese spokesman Qin only said that Beijing was aware of it.

South Korea's reaction to Beijing's weekend declaration has been somewhat muted, reflecting its efforts to forge closer ties with China and a chill in relations with Japan.

On Thursday, however, Seoul's vice defence minister told a senior Chinese military official that the move to impose the new rules created military tension in the region and called on Beijing to rectify the zone

"The Chinese reaction was that they will not be accepting the (South) Korean side's demand," Defence Ministry spokesman Kim Min-seok told reporters after talks between Vice Defence Minister Baek Seung-joo and Wang Guanzhong, the deputy chief of general staff of the Chinese People's Liberation Army.

Asked if China would heed Japanese calls to revoke the air defence zone, China's Defence Ministry spokesman Yang Yujun said Tokyo had implemented its own zone in 1969 and blamed it for raising tensions with its double standards.

"Japan consistently blames others and smears the name of other countries but never examines its own conduct," Yang said in a statement posted on the ministry's website after a press briefing that was closed to foreign reporters.

"If they want it revoked, then we would ask that Japan first revoke its own air defence identification zone and China will reconsider it after 44 years," Yang said.

Japan says it only requires planes headed for its territorial air space to notify authorities, not those merely transiting through its air defence identification zone.

In the ongoing war of words, the policy panel of Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's Liberal Democratic Party approved a resolution on Thursday demanding China rescind the new air defence zone, saying the unilateral move reflected "unreasonable expansionism". But the resolution dropped a more inflammatory reference to "premodern and imperialist expansionism" contained in an earlier draft.

No air defence zone along Sino-India border: China

BEIJING: China on Thursday ruled out establishing an air defence zone along the India-China border like it recently did over the disputed islands in the East China Sea, saying such zones are created only in coastal areas beyond territorial airspace.

"I want to clarify that on the concept of air defence identification zone (ADIZ), it is an area of airspace established by coastal state beyond its territorial airspace. So, the question does not arise," Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Qin Gang told a media briefing here.

He was responding to a question whether China has plans to declare ADIZ along the disputed India-China border, similar to a newly-declared zone over the disputed islands in the East China Sea.

Officials say air defence zones are established for coastal areas beyond the 12 nautical mile-territorial waters but not the land borders which have well-defined airspaces.

However, China apparently is keeping its options open for declaring such a zone over the disputed South China Sea as a defence ministry spokesman here said, replying to a question whether more such zones will be created.

"China will establish other air defence identification zones at an appropriate time after completing preparations," he said.

China has already sent its first aircraft carrier Liaoning for military drills.

The Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia and Brunei contest China's claims of sovereignty over most of the South China Sea.

The US, Japan, South Korea and Australia have already criticised the ADIZ over the East China Sea openly.

China acknowledged that two US B-52 bombers flew through it on Tuesday for over two hours defying the ADIZ rules.

Qin admitted that a South Korean plane, too, has violated the ADIZ rules without informing about the flight.

At the same time, he said many civilian airlines of various countries started informing their flight plans to Chinese aviation authorities, he said.

"As per ADIZ rule aircraft flying though it should submit plans to China. We hope all sides, including civil aviation side, can cooperate actively to maintain flight security. To my information, so far many airlines of many countries filed relevant application to China's civil aviation departments," he said, responding to a question whether Beijing will take action against violating passenger planes.

Who's playing who?

[gf0012-aust]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]34477[/ATTACH]

Source: BBC

As the "most peaceful" country since WWII, Japan has had a ADIZ that is curiously close to its neighbors. The solid blue line. Guess what, now China draws an equally close ADIZ to Japan. I don't see what makes China less peaceful.

since the end of ww2 china has been in military punch ups at an exchange of force level with the US, Vietnam, Philipines, (arguably) the USSR in 1969, India, Tibet (using The Middle Kingdom argument}

Japan has in the same period? 0, Zero, nada, zip, zilch

you seem to have a poor comprehension of how other countries apply an ADIZ - china has rewritten the ADIZ construct to suit - its got zero to do with safety

which country is more peaceful since the end of WW2? in fact by a golden mile?

[cdude]

You seem to really enjoy the line drawn at 1945. I draw my line at 1928 the year sliced bread was invented.

How many Korean women were raped by Chinese soldiers vs by Japanese soldiers?
How many heads got severed by each army?
How many chemical and biological experiments were applied on POWs by each?

And you are comparing an island country who has territory disputes with ALL its neighbors to a country that was founded after 1949 that needed to sort out its LAND borders with most of its neighbors?

It's a fair comparison, how?

Wait China has settled all land borders with all but one. And mostly by peaceful means? You must be kidding me.

since the end of ww2 china has been in military punch ups at an exchange of force level with the US, Vietnam, Philipines, (arguably) the USSR in 1969, India, Tibet (using The Middle Kingdom argument}

Japan has in the same period? 0, Zero, nada, zip, zilch

you seem to have a poor comprehension of how other countries apply an ADIZ - china has rewritten the ADIZ construct to suit - its got zero to do with safety

which country is more peaceful since the end of WW2? in fact by a golden mile?

[gf0012-aust]

You seem to really enjoy the line drawn at 1945. I draw my line at 1928 the year sliced bread was invented.

How many Korean women were raped by Chinese soldiers vs by Japanese soldiers?
How many heads got severed by each army?
How many chemical and biological experiments were applied on POWs by each?

And you are comparing an island country who has territory disputes with ALL its neighbors to a country that was founded after 1949 that needed to sort out its LAND borders with most of its neighbors?

It's a fair comparison, how?

Wait China has settled all land borders with all but one. And mostly by peaceful means? You must be kidding me.

ROFL

China, like Nazi Germany has the dubious distinction of either having a military conflict of some sort with all of her continental neighbours - or forcibly reclaiming "pretend" states that she originally forcibly conquered over the last 500 years through various warlords but still regards the warlord or imperial acquisitions as historical possessions.

The only one desperate for the rewriting of history is yourself I think :)

anyway, I'm not remotely interested in having the thread deteriorate into another rant about an aggrieved china when all her history since 1945 (or 48 seeing that you wanted to invoke Mao) is on public display. I'm not sure you want to run the issue of unwarranted deaths when the Chinese Govt killed almost as many chinese internally as the Russians lost to the Nazis in WW2. One barbarism is no better than the other.

Take a bex and lie down as you're giving yourself conniptions.....

[cdude]

ROFL

China, like Nazi Germany has the dubious distinction of either having a military conflict of some sort with all of her continental neighbours .

Godwin's law, godwin's law.

And you obviously never heard of the greatest democracy --- America

[gf0012-aust]

Godwin's law, godwin's law.

And you obviously never heard of the greatest democracy --- America

/grin

yes, she has two neighbours and both have invaded her at some point in time.

I know its difficult for you - but lets not derail another topic while you do your don quixote thing.....