China-Tibet Threads

[Officer of Engineers]

Yes in a peaceable manner. But China declined to do so so all DL can do is to raise the profile of his people and preserve the cultural heritage as much as he could while passing it on down to his successor and the new generation.

Two things wrong with this position.

Either the DL ordered the violence (and there are some indications that he at least knew it was being planned) or he can do nothing to stop it. Either way, he is not the man he's trying to portray. Either he is lying or he is powerless. If he is lying, then the Chinese are perfectly right to ignore him. If he is powerless, then he is not the one to be negotiating with.

[lemontree]

An arms race would be great for China, especially the opponent's economy is 1/5 that of China and cannot make its weapons.

Now that you mention it, there is a big difference between the Indian and Chinese economies.
The Indian economy has a large internal market, while the Chinese one is dependent on exports.
The Indian economy is a trillion dollar economy even when it is 1/5th of the Chinese economy.

[lemontree]

Times of India is reporting that China did not return empty handed from this adventurism, and did extract their pound of flesh.

It seems that we have agreed to dismantle our forward installations (bunkers etc.) at Chushul in return for their withdrawal.

Something that can always be re-built.

This was India's eyes and ears on the Karakoram region apparently and was making the Chinese very nervous.

You are mistaken. Chumar sector is in the southern part of the LOC near Chushul, miles and miles away from the Karakoram range.

[Blademaster]

Two things wrong with this position.

Either the DL ordered the violence (and there are some indications that he at least knew it was being planned) or he can do nothing to stop it. Either way, he is not the man he's trying to portray. Either he is lying or he is powerless. If he is lying, then the Chinese are perfectly right to ignore him. If he is powerless, then he is not the one to be negotiating with.

Since he is a religious leader and in today's times, he cannot be seen as somebody who is advocating violence or participate in violence because he would be seen as a religious zealot or radical and lose the entire support of the Western hemisphere and other nations. So his options to resist are extremely narrow. He has been dealt a bad deck of cards and he is trying to make magic out of it. So don't begrudge him if he is handed lemons and no sugar and he makes lemonade out of it. It may not be tasty and sweet but at least it is something.

[Officer of Engineers]

Since he is a religious leader and in today's times, he cannot be seen as somebody who is advocating violence or participate in violence because he would be seen as a religious zealot or radical and lose the entire support of the Western hemisphere and other nations. So his options to resist are extremely narrow. He has been dealt a bad deck of cards and he is trying to make magic out of it. So don't begrudge him if he is handed lemons and no sugar and he makes lemonade out of it. It may not be tasty and sweet but at least it is something.

Are you saying that he approved the violent riots?

[Blademaster]

Are you saying that he approved the violent riots?

I am saying stop laying everything at his feet as you are so fond of doing so. Did Pope approved the uprising in Poland against communism rule? As for approving violent riots, he may not have ordered them but he didn't stop them. So big fucking deal. as in contrast to daily restrictions and bias against Tibetans in their homeland where they have to pay lip service and obey and watch their heritage disappearing in the face of more Han migrations. If i was a tibetan, I don't care if Dalai Lama ordered it or not and I protest strongly against Chinese rule but I would care a lot if Dalai Lama came out against it because it would show the Lama's lack of empathy for the Tibetan people.

OOE, I do not think that you understand the plight of the Tibetan people. You are looking at this situation from a chinese perspective and I am calling you out of it. Where is your Tibetan perspective? Therefore, from now on, I take your posts on anything related to Tibet with a huge grain of salt.

[Officer of Engineers]

I am saying stop laying everything at his feet as you are so fond of doing so.

Either he is in charge or he is not.

Did Pope approved the uprising in Poland against communism rule?

The Pope did not demand he is the one to negotiate.

As for approving violent riots, he may not have ordered them but he didn't stop them. So big fucking deal.

Then he is not the one in charge and the Chinese should look elsewhere to negotiate.

as in contrast to daily restrictions and bias against Tibetans in their homeland where they have to pay lip service and obey and watch their heritage disappearing in the face of more Han migrations.

Then, isn't it obvious to you what needs to be done?

If i was a tibetan, I don't care if Dalai Lama ordered it or not and I protest strongly against Chinese rule but I would care a lot if Dalai Lama came out against it because it would show the Lama's lack of empathy for the Tibetan people.

He did come out against it - after the fact and not during. When the damage was done, not only against the Han but the one people he could not afford to alienate, the Hui.

It's the same MO, he blamed the Chinese for the violence but never once pleaded for the rioters to stop and go home, even his monks.

I will say this, however, both sides have been remarkable in keeping the violence to kung fu levels and not pitch gun battles.

OOE, I do not think that you understand the plight of the Tibetan people. You are looking at this situation from a chinese perspective and I am calling you out of it.

I'm looking at this from a historic perspective. There has been one and only one solution to overwhelming civilian migration into your homeland. Violent eviction. Anything else is just pure bullshit.

Where is your Tibetan perspective?

I really don't care about their perspective nor of the Chinese. I just know what kind of bloodshed is needed. I am not going to pay that price, especially when the DL is not going to do it, and I am sick and tire of the Tibetans trying to sweet talk us into it.

Therefore, from now on, I take your posts on anything related to Tibet with a huge grain of salt.

I have yet to read your counters that make any sense.

[Blademaster]

Either he is in charge or he is not.

The Pope did not demand he is the one to negotiate.

Then he is not the one in charge and the Chinese should look elsewhere to negotiate.

Who else is there? The chinese has either killed them or forcibly made them to toe the Chinese line. This is not the first. See Xinjiang

He did come out against it - after the fact and not during. When the damage was done, not only against the Han but the one people he could not afford to alienate, the Hui.

It's the same MO, he blamed the Chinese for the violence but never once pleaded for the rioters to stop and go home, even his monks.

And what of the violence of the Chinese against the Tibetans? I don't see you publicly condemn them. Only after the fact. Are you the same as the DL?

I will say this, however, both sides have been remarkable in keeping the violence to kung fu levels and not pitch gun battles.

Does not that say something?

I'm looking at this from a historic perspective. There has been one and only one solution to overwhelming civilian migration into your homeland. Violent eviction. Anything else is just pure bullshit.

Okay then by your standards, Tibetans should meekly accept the migration and watch their heritage disappear and surrender.

I really don't care about their perspective nor of the Chinese. I just know what kind of bloodshed is needed. I am not going to pay that price, especially when the DL is not going to do it, and I am sick and tire of the Tibetans trying to sweet talk us into it.

I don't see DL or the Tibetans asking you to come in and fight them. They are asking for diplomatic pressure. You are presuming way ahead.

I am sick and tired of Chinese having their way by force and not being called to accountable for their actions and you being an indirect apologist for Chinese actions and giving them a free pass. It is like the situation where a girl gets raped but since the rape is already done, you go ahead and tell her to enjoy the rape because you would not support the backlash because it would hurt the rapist's supporters. That is your logic right there.

I have yet to read your counters that make any sense.

Say that to the mirror and the sentiment is echoed, especially with your blind hatred of the DL.

[cdude]

Now that you mention it, there is a big difference between the Indian and Chinese economies.
The Indian economy has a large internal market, while the Chinese one is dependent on exports.
The Indian economy is a trillion dollar economy even when it is 1/5th of the Chinese economy.

Your understanding of either "Chinese economy" or "dependent" is a little bit off.

But I just want to point out that "a trillion dollar economy" does not mean much anymore. Thinks about crude oil, ~100 USD/B yesterday, was about 20 USD/B ten years ago. Think about it.

Just to add a recent Charlie Rose interview with your finance minister. He seems to have a more realistic view of where Indian economy is.

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12886

[Officer of Engineers]

Who else is there? The chinese has either killed them or forcibly made them to toe the Chinese line. This is not the first. See Xinjiang

Whomever organized the riots would seem to be a start.

And what of the violence of the Chinese against the Tibetans? I don't see you publicly condemn them. Only after the fact. Are you the same as the DL?

I condemned Mao Tse-Tung, didn't I? And you mistook me. My condemnation of the DL is not of the violence. There isn't enough of it. My condemnation is his double talk.

Does not that say something?

That the Chinese are not willing to up the ante if the Tibetans does not. However, you're not understanding. The only way to go is to up the ante and the DL ain't the one to do it.

Okay then by your standards, Tibetans should meekly accept the migration and watch their heritage disappear and surrender.

I'm saying they need to do a Chechnya.

I don't see DL or the Tibetans asking you to come in and fight them. They are asking for diplomatic pressure. You are presuming way ahead.

Oh come off it, Hitesh. Diplomatic pressure. Are you serious?

I am sick and tired of Chinese having their way by force and not being called to accountable for their actions and you being an indirect apologist for Chinese actions.

Welcome to the real world. I'm not an apologist for Chinese actions. I understand them because those are the exact same actions we did to the First Nations, including our betrayal during the War of 1812.

And we're not about to return Ontario back to the Algonquins.

Say that to the mirror and the sentiment is echoed.

You know very well what is needed for Tibet to keep her culture and her lands. You even advocate the same just recently for Indian lands. And benign talk ain't it.

[cdude]

A Conversation with Sikyong Lobsang Sangay - YouTube

A Conversation with Sikyong Lobsang Sangay (elected "prime minister" of Indian Tibetans)

So he says they don't want independence. So what's all the fuss about?

Oh you or your god king want to visit China? Get your documents ready and get in the line see if we want you in.

[Officer of Engineers]

Re: the Chechnya reference

I will be more specific. As horrible and as damaging as Beslan was, and the Chechens suffered far more than they deliver on that incident. It did do one thing. It stopped Russian migration into Chechnya. No sane Russian man would dare bring his family there.

The Chechens lost their independence because of Beslan but not their autonomy. Ruthless Chechens now rule ruthless Chechens but answering to Moscow. However, the chances of Russians overwhelming the Chechen culture has disappeared.

That's the price the Tibetans need to pay.

[cdude]

Re: the Chechnya reference

I will be more specific. As horrible and as damaging as Beslan was, and the Chechens suffered far more than they deliver on that incident. It did do one thing. It stopped Russian migration into Chechnya. No sane Russian man would dare bring his family there.

The Chechens lost their independence because of Beslan but not their autonomy. Ruthless Chechens now rule ruthless Chechens but answering to Moscow. However, the chances of Russians overwhelming the Chechen culture has disappeared.

That's the price the Tibetans need to pay.

Ethnic-cleansing works, you say?

Without guns, the most they can do is something like the riot in 2008 which woke up the central government. Now PAP everywhere in Lhasa, I wonder what they can do now.

[Blademaster]

Re: the Chechnya reference

I will be more specific. As horrible and as damaging as Beslan was, and the Chechens suffered far more than they deliver on that incident. It did do one thing. It stopped Russian migration into Chechnya. No sane Russian man would dare bring his family there.

The Chechens lost their independence because of Beslan but not their autonomy. Ruthless Chechens now rule ruthless Chechens but answering to Moscow. However, the chances of Russians overwhelming the Chechen culture has disappeared.

That's the price the Tibetans need to pay.

Guess what? DL and the Tibetans don't want to pay the price with innocent blood. DL and Tibetans are seeking an alternate solution without such bloodshed and yes they have not found it that would permanently scar their collective souls for generations to come. Since you brought up Chechnya, the Chechens have paid such a huge price for it that some people wonder whether it was worth it or not.

The Xians have tried violence and it didn't work because China responded with more massive migration and simply engaged in ethnic cleansing by drowning the numbers out. The Tibetans are now outnumbered and if they engaged in the kind of warfare, they would only lose it like Serbia lost Kosovo and end up like the Palestinians. See how the Palestinians fare nowadays.

[Blademaster]

I condemned Mao Tse-Tung, didn't I? And you mistook me. My condemnation of the DL is not of the violence. There isn't enough of it. My condemnation is his double talk.

And the Chinese have not engaged in double talk?

That the Chinese are not willing to up the ante if the Tibetans does not. However, you're not understanding. The only way to go is to up the ante and the DL ain't the one to do it.

You are right that DL is not the one to up the ante because it requires a certain rutheless and apathy to morality. The Chinese does not need to up the ante because they have already done it. They have already flooded the region with Han migrants in hopes of drowning the Tibetan people out.

Oh come off it, Hitesh. Diplomatic pressure. Are you serious?

Welcome to the real world. I'm not an apologist for Chinese actions. I understand them because those are the exact same actions we did to the First Nations, including our betrayal during the War of 1812.

And we're not about to return Ontario back to the Algonquins.

The Nuremberg trials, the Nuremberg Conventions, the UN Charter, the numerous human rights laws we have passed have made that as a crime and we could no longer do such a thing or was that only applicable to Germany and specific nations?

The way I see it, the longer we keep supporting the DL and the Tibetan people, the more the Chinese realize that their actions were not condonable and they will have an accounting one day. They cannot simply presume that the world would turn a blind eye to it and give a free pass to China.

You know very well what is needed for Tibet to keep her culture and her lands. You even advocate the same just recently for Indian lands. And benign talk ain't it.

India was lucky because we didn't have the migration so an armed struggle would be seen as war, not as genocide or ethnic cleansing. So any violence would be just warfare. For Tibetans, they cannot even do an insurgency because they have already lost one thing that was inherent in others, manpower. The only way Tibetans can ever have freedom is to have the assistance. The same way that US got its independence, the assistance of France when France used its naval power to block the British navy from reinforcing its troops and allowing the Americans to use its numerically superior forces to defeat the Britain.

Tibetans cannot get their freedom on their own. The deck is too heavily stacked against them.