China-Tibet Threads

[Guest]

what kind of info? come to chinese universities to see for urself. when i taught in chinese universities, minority races are 'super-nationals'. besides enjoying free education and lower entry requisites, they are allowed to carry weapons, and so whenever they had a quarell with han, its not uncommon to see them stab the han student and never get punished. even the school management close one eye on such things.

if u go to the streets in beijing or shanghai, hawkers and peddlers were strictly forbidden, but ulygurs and tibetans just sell their stuff on the streets, policemen, instead of confiscating the merchandise like they did to the other chinese hawkers, they chat and joke with the minorities. monorities hawkers can even sell their stuff right in front of the police stations, nothing will happen to them. anyone who has been to china can verify that.

by the way, the tibetan school and tibetan research center in beijing is just a mile away from my place. and i see them almost everyday.

I thought Merit was the sole choice of consideration in China.Even they have that idiotic system surely some of the top Han students get really pissed

[yeung3939]

think it was removed like last yr or something...

Yes, it has been removed due to public criticism. Just too stupid.

[yeung3939]

what does ROC got to do with all these? if tibetans are happy under ROC but unhappy under PRC, then just too bad. the important thing is, because of the small population and little military strength at anytime in history, they cant resist occupation from a strong central govt. they cannot choose or vote, doesnt mean that they are happy with it.

no matter how recent cantanese get its status as an official language in HK, it IS an official language. tibetan is not, period. if u cant see the difference, sorry, i cant help u out. and what, the oppressed must have loved the opressor? did u run a poll?

that's why i said, there is 50 yrs of difference in management methods and there is no pressing war time needs compared to japan in early 20th century. chinese govt neednt tax tibet, cos the other areas can provide enuff income. besides there is nothing much to tax, cos unless chinese govt go dig out all the natural resources there and destroy all the environment there, tibet cant offer much with their low production and harsh environment. the chinese might as well do the tibetans a favor. as for taiwan, they can afford to be taxed. please go and read up economic improvements in taiwan under japanese rule. thats much more appealing than what the chinese are doing now in tibet.

and wrong assumption again, the information i got was from chinese websites. funny, dont u know that i'm in china now and chinese banned foreign tibetan sites? how come u never learn ur lessons after u made so much wrong assumptions? personally i'm not particularly interested in dalai lama and his teachings cos i'm not into tibetan buddhism. besides, i've met enuff religious ppl to know their common tactics. so again, ur wrong assumption.

please stick to the matter itself instead of making wild guesses at other poster's background or mentality or beliefs. thats typical chinese arguing style and it doesnt help in an educated discussion.

First, if the Tibetan 1912-1950's government did recognize or did not deny Tibet was part of ROC China, much of Da Lai Lama's legitimacy claim (e.g. Tibet was a sovereign state before the communist takeover) would be incorrect. This would weaken the validity of their other claims too. Plus, this shows China (sovereignty issue) and CCP (human rights issue) can be separated. But yes this is not directly related to what we are discussing.

Second, I dont have time to read up the Japanese work in Taiwanese. But would you mind pointing out what amazing infrastructure was built in Taiwan by Japanese? I never mentioned the economic growth figure of Tibet, because I knew CCP's official figures wouldn't convince you guys. I just stressed the highways, railways that connect TIbet with neighbouring countries and provinces. Also, Japanese also did force Taiwanese to change names. They did force Taiwanese to study Japanese. They did have racial discrimination (positive discrimination). They did have race-based social hierarchy. But even so, many local Taiwanese did and do prefer the Japanese rule to KMT's rule to some extent. How you can draw direct analogy between Tibet and Japanese Taiwan is beyond me.

Third, they, not me, are assuming I have no access to information, am influenced by CCP's indoctrination and biased towards CCP's claims. YOu did assme I was not aware of the Western perspective. Plus, I never based my argument on any assumption about posters' background. Other people did.
I never equated supporting CCP with patriotism. I think it is absolutely stupid.
Citing points relied on by CCP =/= those points are false
Citing points relied on by CCP =/= I am a communist or whatever
Thinking the protest may not represent the majority will =/= I don't support self-determination
Thinking the majority of Tibetans may not want independence from PRC =/= I don't think they should enjoy human rights properly defined
Thinking China (not CCP) has a legitimate claim over Tibet (perhaps supported by popular will on the part of TIbetans) =/= I support CCP's infringement of human rights

[yeung3939]

[QUOTE=Ray;519744][QUOTE=yeung3939;519675]

I did not coin that? Why do I say ''barbarian"'? What is ''nei ren'' and ''wai ren'' . Surely. you have not forgotten Chinese history!

Why blame Tibetan Buddhism with political connection. All religions have the same! Who says Tibetan Buddhism is to dominate? In Tibet, it was an equation. The Communists came and they brought with them the religion of Communism!

It is total humbug that the British would change your name. It is the Hans who changed names. If you changed y9our name to George Bush, you would be one of the usually kowtowing Chinese! I would never change my name under any circumstances. You Chinese have the mindset to kowtow to authority and that is why you kowtowed to Mao or to Deng and are totally confused as to what you are and where you are going! One day, you praise Communism and the second day you praise Capitalism.Why? You have no mind of your own, you have been programmed like a robot because of your culture and Legalism!!!

Actually I know nothing of China since it is ambiguous, devious and cunning. Hong Kong and China are two different kettle of fish and so is Macao. Jumping ship as per the weather. Or, any port in stormy weather!!

It is bogus that Tibetan starved. Don't give me that claptrap!

Check your posts. You worldly life is a materialist comfort and not spiritual!! You would accept a snake oil salesman as God so long as the till rang dollars!

Sigh... Don't comment on things you don't know.
Traditionally,
Nei Ren = wife
Wai Ren = husband
but the younger generation doesn't use these words anymore.

Are you sure all religions have political connections? The TIbetan Budhism is inseparable from politics and this is the source of conflict between CCP and those arrested monks. CCP, at least now, does not discourage or prohibit the private practice of religion in Tibet. Also, China doesn't have religion. Even if CCP did try to impose 'the religion of communism' on Tibetans, it is not the case now. Very few people, if any, believe in communism anymore. Communism is now just an excuse for so-called neo-authoritarianism.

My parents, family friends, aunts, uncles, all participated in protests against the 'colonial measures' of the British colonial government. No one in HK is robot, and no one in China has been asked to change names. Minority people are only asked to get a Chinese translation of their names. What's wrong with that?

In the first half of last century, everyone in Asia except Japanese starved.

[yeung3939]

I would request you to share some more info over this point .

It is well-known in China that it is much easier for students from minority groups to get into good universities. This is state policy. This is the reality.

[Zeng]

zeng,


can't blame me if you mainlanders talk funny. :) yang yu, what the hell is that, all civilized people know a potato is called ma ling shu. :)

as for nei ren and wai ren, you're right, i cut it too short: i was thinking nei di ren and wai di ren, which should fit the bill.

finally, regarding dong lai shun, overrated! :)) i prefer 清真馬家管...

astralis,

Civilized people wouldn't call tomato "fan qie" and eat the barbarian eggplant:))

Civilized people eat “xi hong shi” (west red fruit) ;)

In mainland China, nei di ren means the people from central China; wai di ren means the people from other provinces.

It is 清真馬家館. Do they have restaurant in Beijing? I thought that they are in California to feed lao wai with non-genius (modified) Muslim food :))

Part of the dining experience is to enjoy the legend and history of a restaurant and dong lai shun (東來順) provides them.

[yeung3939]

astralis,

Civilized people wouldn't call tomato "fan qie" and eat the barbarian eggplant:))

Civilized people eat “xi hong shi” (west red fruit) ;)

In mainland China, nei di ren means the people from central China; wai di ren means the people from other provinces.

It is 清真馬家館. Do they have restaurant in Beijing? I thought that they are in California to feed lao wai with non-genius (modified) Muslim food :))

Part of the dining experience is to enjoy the legendry and history of a restaurant and dong lai shun provides them.

With respect, I would like to point out fan qie is Cantonese word. I personally call tomato fan qie, instead of xi hong shi.

[Zeng]

With respect, I would like to point out fan qie is Cantonese word. I personally call tomato fan qie, instead of xi hong shi.

Then, you need to learn to become civilized people ;)

Civilized people eat “xi hong shi” instead of barbarian eggplant, the fan qie :))

[Ray]

[QUOTE=yeung3939;519978][QUOTE=Ray;519744][QUOTE=yeung3939;519675]

Sigh... Don't comment on things you don't know.
Traditionally,
Nei Ren = wife
Wai Ren = husband
but the younger generation doesn't use these words anymore.

It is time you learn something of which you have no idea about before you tell others that they do not know. Your mind has been washed it appears.

Here (the link below) is something more for you to sigh about. Here is the traditional version:

YI, YANG, XI, WAI AND OTHER TERMS:
THE TRANSITION FROM ‘BARBARIAN’ TO ‘FOREIGNER’
IN NINETEENTH-CENTURY CHINA
http://www.wsc.uni-erlangen.de/pdf/fang.pdf

Yi , yang , xi and wai —although they are not etymologically
related—are four Chinese words that can be used as nouns and
as adjectives, depending of course on the context, to describe things,
relationships and events outside the Middle Kingdom (Zhongguo)

Yi was originally used only in combination with dong — dong yi
( eastern barbarians4 ), referring to areas or people to the east of
Central China (zhongyuan ) . This is why the term from the very
beginning carried with it a negative denotation and connotation. Gradually,
the character yi gained greater universality and came to signify,
in addition to the eastern inhabitants, ‘barbarians’ of the periphery in
general—in contrast to the peoples of xia and hua or huaxia
(i.e. the inhabitants of what was to be called the Middle Kingdom
later on). The term yi , which thus referred to ‘barbarian’ peoples of
the periphery living on ‘Chinese’ soil or that of vassal states, was used
since the late Ming and early Qing dynasty not only for additional
groups of people surrounding the Middle Kingdom,

Find a permanent abode under the Bridge of Sighs! ;)

Are you sure all religions have political connections? The TIbetan Budhism is inseparable from politics and this is the source of conflict between CCP and those arrested monks. CCP, at least now, does not discourage or prohibit the private practice of religion in Tibet. Also, China doesn't have religion. Even if CCP did try to impose 'the religion of communism' on Tibetans, it is not the case now. Very few people, if any, believe in communism anymore. Communism is now just an excuse for so-called neo-authoritarianism.

What is your take on religion and its connection to politics?

Even Confucianism is but a political commentary couched in homilies and piety - the emotions that you all are so adept at.

If very few believes in Communism these days, then how is the CCP functioning?

Have they converted to the Democratic and the Republican parties of the USA?

Why this obfuscation to fool?

My parents, family friends, aunts, uncles, all participated in protests against the 'colonial measures' of the British colonial government. No one in HK is robot, and no one in China has been asked to change names. Minority people are only asked to get a Chinese translation of their names. What's wrong with that?

NO wonder you want to be a mouthpiece.

You are not robots in HK, but you have your boss who is Communist China sponsored and Chinese Communist diktats are sacrosanct!!

You epitomise the typical double game played by the Chinese to suit all seasons!!

In the first half of last century, everyone in Asia except Japanese starved.

So?

And yet they survived. Why? Because of their spiritual strength!!

[yeung3939]

[QUOTE=Ray;520003][QUOTE=yeung3939;519978][QUOTE=Ray;519744]

It is time you learn somethi8ng of which you have no idea about before you tell others that they do not know. Your mind has been washed it appears.

Here (the link below) is something more for you to sigh about.



Find a permanent abode under the Bridge of Sighs! ;)




What is your take on religion and its connection to politics?

Even Confucianism is but a political commentary couched in homilies and piety.

If very few believes in Communism these days, then how is the CCP functioning?

Have they converted to the Democratic and the Republican parties of the USA?

Why this obfuscation to fool?



You are not robots in HK, but you have your boss who is Communist China sponsored and Chinese Communist diktats are sacrosanct!!

You epitomise the typical double game played by the Chinese to suit all seasons!!



So?

And yet they survived. Why? Because of their spiritual strength!!

You obviously don't know what 'wai ren' stands for.
What is the relationship between 'wai yi' and the case of Tibet?

I can confidently tell you CCP is functioning because it has no viable competitor and the economy is doing well. It has nothing to do with communism. Even the CCP is arguably replacing communism with nationalism.


Yes, all people without relations with CCP and with independent mind must disagree with CCP's arguments right? Must agree with Free Tibet's arguments?
Hope not all Indians are as biased and narrow-minded as you.

[Mobbme]

roflz epic posts

An Indian teaching a Chinese stuff about China and its languages roflzz

Just loving it sir!!!

[yeung3939]

roflz epic posts

An Indian teaching a Chinese stuff about China and its languages roflzz

Just loving it sir!!!

He quoted Chinese words wrong.
It should be 'wai yi', not 'wai ren'.

The Chinese Empire had good reasons to be that arrogant, but this arrogance ruined China in the 19th century. Stil, I can't see the link between 'wai yi' and Tibet.

[Ray]

[QUOTE][QUOTE=yeung3939;520004][QUOTE=Ray;520003][QUOTE=yeung3939;519978]

You obviously don't know what 'wai ren' stands for.

You must be correct.

Not only I don't, but also scholars like:

YI, YANG, XI, WAI AND OTHER TERMS:
THE TRANSITION FROM ‘BARBARIAN’ TO ‘FOREIGNER’
IN NINETEENTH-CENTURY CHINA
http://www.wsc.uni-erlangen.de/pdf/fang.pdf

or

Han culturism differentiates between the culture of the Han, the inner people (nei ren) and the barbarians, the outer people (wai ren). This concept is a hand me down from the time of the Shang Dynasty, who political centre was located North of the Yellow River.

The Chinese differentiate between raw barbarians (shengfan) or the unassimilated people and the “cooked barbarians” (shufan) or those who were assimilated and yet were not the Han people e.g. the Han Chinese separated the ‘cooked’ Li of the coast of Hainan from the ‘uncooked’ Li of the central forest.

Barbarians were given generic names in the Chinese classics and histories: the Yi barbarians to the East, the Man to the South, Rong to the West and Di to the North.

Until the 1930s, the names of the outgroups (wai ren) were commonly written in characters with the animal radical: the Di, a northern tribe were linked to the dog; the Man and Min of the South were characterised with reptiles; the Qiangs were written with a sheep radical. This reflected the Han Chinese conviction that civilisation and culture were linked with humanity; alien groups living outside the pale of Han society were regarded as inhuman savages.

The custom of sharply distinguishing between the inner and outer people went along with the calling China the Middle Kingdom (zhong guo) , which began by ruling the Central plain (zhongyang) in North China. Rather than using outright military conquest, the theory of ‘using the Chinese ways to transform the barbarians (yongxiabianyi)’ was promulgated. By cultural absorption or racial integration through intermarriage, a barbarian could become a Han Chinese (Hanhua).

Excerpted from:

An Ethnohistorical Dictionary of China
http://books.google.com/books?id=IOM8qF ... t#PPA95,M1

Sun Yat Sen, the founder of Chinese Republic overthrew the Qing Dynasty which ruled over all of China from 1644 to 1911 and proclaim when he launch his rebellion against the Qing Dynasty which was ruled by Manchus:

“ In order to restore our national independence, we must first restore the Chinese nation. In order to restore the Chinese nation, we must drive the barbarian Manchus back to the Changbai Mountains. In order to get rid of the barbarians, we must first overthrow the present tyrannical, dictatorial, ugly, and corrupt Qing government. Fellow countrymen, a revolution is the only means to overthrow the Qing government!

What is the relationship between 'wai yi' and the case of Tibet?

Those who are not Sinicised or kowtow to the Han culture are barbarian as per Chinese traditional interpretation!

I can confidently tell you CCP is functioning because it has no viable competitor and the economy is doing well. It has nothing to do with communism.

And I can confidently tell you that the mainland Chinese have become domesticated and with no fire in your belly or your mind (to put it politely) unlike Sun Yat Sen or Mao. You claim that you are not Communists and yet you kowtow to the party apparatchiks! Why? as you said, your new God is MONEY!

Even the CCP is arguably replacing communism with nationalism.

The usual Chinese form of confusing issues with pious and high moralistic semantics!

Go tell it to the Marines!

[QUOTE]

Yes, all people without relations with CCP and with independent mind must disagree with CCP's arguments right? Must agree with Free Tibet's arguments?
Hope not all Indians are as biased and narrow-minded as you.

Narrow minded?

Why?

Because I don't kowtow to the Communist Party line?

[Ray]

roflz epic posts

An Indian teaching a Chinese stuff about China and its languages roflzz

Just loving it sir!!!

Indeed with links from scholastic treatise.

Have you anything to offer apart from puerile juvenile comments?

I am sure that China is not a secret world or is it, chum?

Even with all its ways and means to prevent the truth coming out, the truth cannot be suppressed for too long.

When did you emigrate?

Lastly, is knowledge insular when books and intelligence is not the sole realm of Mobbme!

You are a Chinese, right ?

Educate yourself, son!

I will recant and apologise, if you can prove that you are a greater scholar than those I have quoted.

What by the way are you academic achievements?

[Ray]

He quoted Chinese words wrong.
It should be 'wai yi', not 'wai ren'.

The Chinese Empire had good reasons to be that arrogant, but this arrogance ruined China in the 19th century. Stil, I can't see the link between 'wai yi' and Tibet.

I have no idea of the Chinese language.

I am quoting scholars, who apparently know what they write!