China-Tibet Threads

[devgupt]

3, again, minority groups are not affect by the point system or the exam. if they show some diligent or interest in studying, they get free entry into universities. language barrier is no barrier at all. they will graduate no matter what. same thing for national atheletes and other sportsmen.

I would request you to share some more info over this point .

[Blademaster]

Well If a Tibetan only needs to interact with his local grocer then he needs no education at all.

I strongly dispute and disagree with that. It is not necessary to learn English to have any good education.

On a serious note- are u trying to imply that English has no role in China's future.Going by pronouncements of the Chinese government(we will make every taxi driver learn English) it seems to me English will occupy a big role in china

Yes in the same way that Spanish has no role in America's future but many people speak Spanish. Hell learning to speak Spanish is required if you wanna do business in Latin America.

USA, UK and other allies have many infrastructure projects in Afghanistan and Iraq. Going by your logic how different then is the infrastructure development done by China inTibet?

You don't see anybody in Afghanistan speaking Hindi or Mandarin, do ya?

[devgupt]

Let me paraphrase what OOE and others are saying over the English vs Mandarin teaching issue for Tibetans-Tibetans need to learn Mandarin and not English since Mandarin is the dominant language of that counrty.

Pakistan also used this argument and made it a cornerstone of its national policy. The end product was Bangladesh .

In India something similar (one language policy) was about to be introduced. And at that time one state of India erupted in revolt. It was a mass revolt.Fortunately government of India saw sense and let the status quo continue. Otherwise we would have got another Bangladesh.
If people in South Asia are so sensitive about the need to save their language I believe our neighbours in Tibet would be same. But unfortunately for them they don't have the luxury of democracy in their country .And China is much more tougher than Pakistan

[Officer of Engineers]

Faulty logic. Bangladesh had no land bridge to Pakistan. There is also not a collective guilt in which both Bangladesh and Pakistan wants to forget their past episode. Both sides said good riddance. That is not the situation with Tibet/China. Both wanted to forget the nightmare that they both participated in - the GPCR.

Tibetans need to learn Mandarin if for no other reason not to be ripped off by other Tibetans who can speak the language. You want the best price for the freshest fruit off that truck from China interior? Learn a few words of Mandarin. Otherwise, pay the markup for what is left after others got through with the truck.

I live in a country with two official languages that I speak but it ain't French I'm speaking when I want that business from down south.

However, the question is not about the Tibetan language versus Mandarin. The question I'm challenging you on is of what benefit do the regular Tibetan got by learning English and not Mandarin? You still have not answer that and danced around the issue.

[astralis]

ray,

What is ''nei ren'' and ''wai ren'' . Surely. you have not forgotten Chinese history!

not a big deal to your central argument, but the terms translate to "inlander" and "outlander" respectively, with a neutral tone.

the chinese term for "barbarian" is ye ren, with "ye" meaning "wild". "fan" is also used. neither of these terms are much used today. ironically the only time i hear "barbarian" used in chinese these days is in terms of the humble tomato, which in taiwan is called "fan qie," or "barbarian/foreign eggplant."

[von Spreuth]

They are concentrated in a specific area while English speakers are spread around the world.

Hm. O.K.

So how about Cantonese?

How many speak that "back home", and .... well I believe 90% of the Chinese in Europe speak it.(?)

Does it come any where close? The Chinese in the Americas, Austrilasia, and East Asia as well?

Just curious. I always found Far East Asia, and Indian history fascinating.

It has retained much of the "spiritual" dimension that the West has lost.

[astralis]

von Spreuth,

It has retained much of the "spiritual" dimension that the West has lost.

lol, wait till you go there, and you see a starbucks knock off in the forbidden palace...

[Zeng]

ray,


not a big deal to your central argument, but the terms translate to "inlander" and "outlander" respectively, with a neutral tone.

the chinese term for "barbarian" is ye ren, with "ye" meaning "wild". "fan" is also used. neither of these terms are much used today. ironically the only time i hear "barbarian" used in chinese these days is in terms of the humble tomato, which in taiwan is called "fan qie," or "barbarian/foreign eggplant."

astralis,

LOL, you stay in US for too long and have forgotten some of the Chinese vocabularies, at least the mainland Chinese vocabularies :))

Literally speaking, “nei ren” means wife. It has a vague implication that wife’s position is inside the house. To advocate the equality between men and women, I think that this word has not been used in live conversation at least among the educated people since CCP took the power.

Literally speaking, “wai ren” means the people outside your family and close friends. It is a totally neutral word.

“wai guo ren” (direct translation: foreign country people) is the official Chinese word for foreigner.

“ye ren” does mean wild person that may be big foot waiting to be discovered or imply a person with wild personality. “ye ren” is a neutral word. Parents with a smile on their faces sometimes call their kids "ye ren" if their kids play too wild.

“yi, di, fan, mang, yang ren”, guizi and “lao wai” mean foreigners.

“yi, di, fan or mang ren” were live words for thousands of years until probably 60 or more years ago. They all mean barbarians.

Today probably only the names of the vegetables left as you motioned, the tomato as "fan qie". But in mainland China, very few people call tomato "fan qie" now. We call it “xi hong shi” (west red fruit). The “west” here may imply that it came from foreign countries. Sorry, translating “shi” into fruit may not be very accurate.

“yang ren” means foreigners especially from the west (xi yang ren) or Japan (dong yang ren) with a little bit of admiration. It was a live word used from around 300 years ago to around 100 years ago until Qin dynasty collapsed. Today, if someone uses the word “yang ren”, normally he/she just uses the word for jokes.

Guizi (son of the ghost) is still used today mainly refer to the invaders from west (xi yang guizi) and Japan (dong yang guizi or ri ben guizi).

In normal conversation today between Chinese people, guizi is sometimes used in a funny way that not necessarily means bad. It is hard to tell a foreigner about the subtle funny sense when we use the word guizi.

“Lao wai” is the most frequently used word today in China referring foreigners in conversation. It is a neutral word just means foreigners. When we call foreigners “lao wai”, we call ourselves “lao zhong”.

Besides “yang ren” Chinese called almost every modern things from west or Japan as “yang ***” with some admiration until probably around 100 years ago when Qing dynasty collapsed.

Today, probably the most frequently used “yang ***” word is the potato. We call it “yang yu” that means yutao from foreign countries. Very few people may still use “yang huo” referring to match although most people call it “huo cai” (fire wood) today.

Here is a joke for guessing the name of a famous Chinese Mongolian dish from the clue of “Lao wai xi zhao” (A foreigner has a shower).

The answer is “shuan yang rou” (Instant boiled mutton).

Mutton is called “yang rou” in Chinese. The joke takes the pronunciation of “yang rou” as “yang ren de rou” (the meat of the yang ren or the meat of the foreigner).

W4E: Shuan Yang Rou Recipe (Chinese Mongolian hot pot) | China

Dong Lai Shun is the most famous restaurant in China for “shuan yang rou”. It is a Muslim restaurant located in central Beijing. I highly recommend it if anyone visits Beijing.

Hot Pot at Dong Lai Shun in Beijing on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

[Ray]

As opposed to English? The local markets speaks both Tibetan and Mandarin. You want the Tibetan customer's money, you speak Tibetan. You want the Chinese customer's money, you speak Mandarin. However, chances are you ain't going to make a living speaking English.

And when you ant BIG Money, and $$, you speak English!! :)) ;)

[Ray]

Faulty logic. Bangladesh had no land bridge to Pakistan. There is also not a collective guilt in which both Bangladesh and Pakistan wants to forget their past episode. Both sides said good riddance. That is not the situation with Tibet/China. Both wanted to forget the nightmare that they both participated in - the GPCR.

Tibetans need to learn Mandarin if for no other reason not to be ripped off by other Tibetans who can speak the language. You want the best price for the freshest fruit off that truck from China interior? Learn a few words of Mandarin. Otherwise, pay the markup for what is left after others got through with the truck.

I live in a country with two official languages that I speak but it ain't French I'm speaking when I want that business from down south.

However, the question is not about the Tibetan language versus Mandarin. The question I'm challenging you on is of what benefit do the regular Tibetan got by learning English and not Mandarin? You still have not answer that and danced around the issue.

I am afraid you are not conversant with the Bengali West Pkaistani (more correctly, Punjabi) equation.

The whole issue was on language and culture

It might interest you to know that the Bangladesh national Anthem is a Rabidrasangeet i.e. a song composed by Nobel Laureate Rabindranath Tagore, who was an Bengali and from West Bengal, India.

[astralis]

zeng,

LOL, you stay in US for too long and have forgotten some of the Chinese, at least the mainland Chinese

can't blame me if you mainlanders talk funny. :) yang yu, what the hell is that, all civilized people know a potato is called ma ling shu. :)

as for nei ren and wai ren, you're right, i cut it too short: i was thinking nei di ren and wai di ren, which should fit the bill.

finally, regarding dong lai shun, overrated! :)) i prefer 清真馬家管...

[Aniki]

I would request you to share some more info over this point .

what kind of info? come to chinese universities to see for urself. when i taught in chinese universities, minority races are 'super-nationals'. besides enjoying free education and lower entry requisites, they are allowed to carry weapons, and so whenever they had a quarell with han, its not uncommon to see them stab the han student and never get punished. even the school management close one eye on such things.

if u go to the streets in beijing or shanghai, hawkers and peddlers were strictly forbidden, but ulygurs and tibetans just sell their stuff on the streets, policemen, instead of confiscating the merchandise like they did to the other chinese hawkers, they chat and joke with the minorities. monorities hawkers can even sell their stuff right in front of the police stations, nothing will happen to them. anyone who has been to china can verify that.

by the way, the tibetan school and tibetan research center in beijing is just a mile away from my place. and i see them almost everyday.

[hong1006]

Right but then the Chinese are themselves learning english nowadays. But they are making Tibetans learn Chinese.They are denying the advantage of english to Tibetans.
More importantly admission to university is through a common entrance examination but the medium of examination is in Chinese for almost all courses.So obviously the aim is to make tibetans feel that their language will take them nowhere .This isn't the policy to be followed if u consider ur country to be multi-lingual.

I have an Indian classmate in my class and he once teld me that there is a practical need of teaching English in Indian schools because English is the only commonly accepted medium in a multi-lingual country like India. Correct me if I am wrong.

If you want to do business in China, u would better learn Chinese. It is not only for Tibetans but for other foreign businessmen.

[Ray]

YI, YANG, XI, WAI AND OTHER TERMS:
THE TRANSITION FROM ‘BARBARIAN’ TO ‘FOREIGNER’
IN NINETEENTH-CENTURY CHINA
http://www.wsc.uni-erlangen.de/pdf/fang.pdf

Yi , yang , xi and wai —although they are not etymologically
related—are four Chinese words that can be used as nouns and
as adjectives, depending of course on the context, to describe things,
relationships and events outside the Middle Kingdom (Zhongguo)

Yi was originally used only in combination with dong — dong yi
( eastern barbarians4 ), referring to areas or people to the east of
Central China (zhongyuan ) . This is why the term from the very
beginning carried with it a negative denotation and connotation. Gradually,
the character yi gained greater universality and came to signify,
in addition to the eastern inhabitants, ‘barbarians’ of the periphery in
general—in contrast to the peoples of xia and hua or huaxia
(i.e. the inhabitants of what was to be called the Middle Kingdom
later on). The term yi , which thus referred to ‘barbarian’ peoples of
the periphery living on ‘Chinese’ soil or that of vassal states, was used
since the late Ming and early Qing dynasty not only for additional
groups of people surrounding the Middle Kingdom, but also for Europeans
and Americans, so as to underline the inferiority of other human
beings and cultures (if one was at all willing to recognize that further
cultures existed in the world). Thus, both the intension (content of the
category) as well as the extension (limits; reach) of the character
yi were expanded, forming a specific context and a global reference, and
signifying qualities, evaluations, etc.
The polarity of yi and xia, which expressed a historically developed
attitude towards foreigners, appeared finally like an anthropological
constant and constituted cultural codes. For the average human
being growing up under the social and cultural conditions of the Middle
Kingdom, the binary opposition formed by the said categories
reflected an indisputable statement of fact: one was after all certain of
the superiority and uniqueness of China’s political culture; one was
certain that China must be taken for the centre of the world, and furthermore
that there was no other state rivalling China. This basic attitude
later on became easily apparent as prejudiced ethnocentrism, a
xenophobic expression of the attitude of being on one’s guard, and
this was correspondingly reflected in its lexical objectivation—by
way of the word yi. In addition to the term yi, yang ‘oceanic’ or ‘coming from overseas’, xi ‘Western’ and wai ‘external’ or ‘foreign’—terms which, in
opposition to yi , were not as plainly connected with value judgments
and which expressed a more or less neutral point of view—all wereYi
was originally used only in combination with dong —
dong yi
( eastern barbarians4 ), referring to areas or people to the east of
Central China (zhongyuan ) .

[Aniki]

von Spreuth,



lol, wait till you go there, and you see a starbucks knock off in the forbidden palace...

think it was removed like last yr or something...