Jaish terrorists attack CRPF convoy in Kashmir, 40 killed

[kuku]

DE,

And just to make clear, I'm not arguing against disarming/neutralizing any violent Kashmir based groups - I'm questioning the Indian rationale and motives to escalate while also questioning the Indian mantra of automatically blaming Pakistan regardless of what the evidence says.

The way I see it, Pakistan has done a lot to reduce the violence from Pakistan based groups against India - something that Pakistan feels Modi especially has refused to acknowledge, and in fact gone out of his way to blame Pakistan for. He's engaged in hate-mongering & anti-Pakistan hysteria domestically through a manipulated media (all those anonymous government sources that pop up with fantastic claims on Indian TV and print) to the point where any major terrorist attack HAS to be blamed on Pakistan.

"Violent Kashmir based groups"
They are called terrorists.............
Terrorists who have carried out attacks, and claimed responsibility in India from JEM, HM, LeT.
Where do they live? Pakistan...
How do their operatives cross Into India? Under suppressing fire from Pakistan Paramilitary and Military....
What do investigations in India and Afghanistan show? direct ISI support to terrorism.
Indian's really do not care what is happening in Pakistan, nor do the billions of people in the world, all that is hoped for is that Pakistan stops this direct support to Armed terrorism in India, Afghanistan, and Iran.

The straight face denial, Pakistan feels this strange need to fight this information warfare, which does nothing at all, except to may be keep its vanity intact.
1947:- Pakistan kept on insisting it was tribal action? and to what end, it sent an invitation for India to get into J&K.
65:-Pakistan again starts the tribal and locals narrative.
71:- Claims No atrocities happening in the East, Hello Bangladesh.
99:- Again with the local and tribal narrative.

In the 2000s, Hafiz Saeed, Mazood Azar globally recognised terrorist organisation leaders roam around in Pakistan (they are not even hiding in ISI safehouses like Osama and the Taliban leadership).

Azar by the way is outside an India jail as a result of a ISI highjacking, and Pakistan is asking for evidence against him.

But this is not going to happen, Pakistan will keep supporting Terrorists against India, Iran and Afghanistan under its nuclear umbrella, it is part of their strategy for the region.

India, Iran and Afghanistan know this, and will keep fighting the battle.

So lets all drop the pretenses and realize that this is a war, which will go on.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Why didn't you take them out ? Loose cannons are a liability

Do you recall what Pakistan's approach to the TTP was in the initial years?

Negotiate, convince them to stop fighting the Pakistani State. There was little popular support within Pakistan to militarily take on the TTP. Even the Lal Masjid operation was heavily criticized and turned into a major propaganda tool for religious extremists fighting the Pakistani State. The same approach was applied to the JeM, despite it's actions against the Pakistani State. The same concerns existed then - prevent the Kashmir focused groups from joining hands with the TTP. There was already a lot of criticism of the State bowing in front of the US to 'kill Afghans and fellow Muslims', adding in a narrative of the Pakistani State 'selling out Kashmir' was going to be devastating in terms of fueling violent religious extremism and the push for 'Establishment of Shariah'.

So the approach taken was the same as that initially taken with the TTP - negotiate with groups like the JeM and convince them to stop fighting the Pakistani State, while applying some level of containment on their actions in J&K and India. The JeM (with the pressure brought upon them from various actors) agreed to stand down while the TTP did not.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Its for your guys to show tangible change. Permanent change. That is how you will win people over.

Saying things have changed or will change without any tangible results on the ground isn't credible.

The results on the ground have changed, or Kashmir would be in flames. The fact that major attacks in Kashmir remain isolated events is clear evidence of things changing. Now, if you're looking for 'perfection', then you're going to be waiting for ever.

Attacks in the rest of India have come down dramatically since 26/11 but we see an uptick in violence towards the state & Kashmir from 2013 onwards.

And that means what? How is that Pakistan's fault?

[Agnostic Muslim]

The Paks have moved their F16's to forward bases and are undertaking night flying. They've shifted terror camps to FATA now.

IAF asks for fresh ammo as Pakistan moves up F16s, takes terror camps to FATA | ET | Mar 20 2019

We'll be watching launchpads in PO J&K and taking them out should they present themselves as targets. If they can't get people into India then we've contained them right there.

Bunch of hogwash. Considering the amount of lies spewed by the Indian media in trying to 'concoct' damage at the Madrassa compound in Balakot and faked audio clips and old pictures and videos of funerals, I find it rather surprising that seemingly sensible and logical Indians such as yourself put any truck in this nonsense being churned out.

[Double Edge]

Bunch of hogwash. Considering the amount of lies spewed by the Indian media in trying to 'concoct' damage at the Madrassa compound in Balakot and faked audio clips and old pictures and videos of funerals, I find it rather surprising that seemingly sensible and logical Indians such as yourself put any truck in this nonsense being churned out.

Not clear to me what is hogwash in that article. The IAF chief said in his remarks over a week ago that operations were ongoing.

I don't see anything in that article that contradicts his statement.

[Double Edge]

The results on the ground have changed, or Kashmir would be in flames. The fact that major attacks in Kashmir remain isolated events is clear evidence of things changing. Now, if you're looking for 'perfection', then you're going to be waiting for ever.

But you can see a clear trend in increase of attacks in Kashmir isn't it. Pathankot, Uri & Nagrota weren't locals.

What i'm looking for is credible evidence that the Pak military has stopped using terror as an instrument of state policy towards India.

We'll deal with other attacks. Naxals have nothing to do with Pakistan, we don't blame you for those.

And that means what? How is that Pakistan's fault?

Because the infiltrations are ongoing. The commanders that were killed in the last couple of years were Pakistani.

Look, 14 countries of the UNSC sided with India on listing Masod Azhar. They agreed he was based in Pakistan.

A proscribed org that is also banned in Pakistan still continues to operate in Pakistan.

It isn't just India you have to convince but increasingly the rest of the world on this subject.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Not clear to me what is hogwash in that article. The IAF chief said in his remarks over a week ago that operations were ongoing.

I don't see anything in that article that contradicts his statement.

I was referring specifically to the parts about:

1. Moving terror camps to FATA (FATA doesn't exist anymore).

2. The whining about Pakistan deploying F-16's. Really? Do people in Indian really believe the US sold 500 AMRAAM's to Pakistan to fight 'terrorists'? What fighter jets do Al Qaeda and the Taliban operate? The only possible End Use conditions in place are that Pakistan won't use the F-16's in an offensive capacity, but that does not prevent Pakistan from using them in self defence.

[Double Edge]

I was referring specifically to the parts about:

1. Moving terror camps to FATA (FATA doesn't exist anymore).

2. The whining about Pakistan deploying F-16's. Really? Do people in Indian really believe the US sold 500 AMRAAM's to Pakistan to fight 'terrorists'? What fighter jets do Al Qaeda and the Taliban operate? The only possible End Use conditions in place are that Pakistan won't use the F-16's in an offensive capacity, but that does not prevent Pakistan from using them in self defence.

1. I take it to mean they have been relocated. Where to will become clear with time.

2. i'm not sure what is happening presently with the IAF & PAF. I thought things had cooled down since the kartapur talks were restarted recently from Pakistan. I took that as closure of hostilities.

As for F16-s used in offense, they were sent to India as a riposte. They crossed the border i understand and fired at Indian jets. If we recovered the remainder of the missile in India then it was used in an offensive operation isn't it. I don't know how many AMRAAM's were sold to Pakistan just that Pakistan used them

It's not clear what the PAF intended to strike in Kashmir on Feb 28.

[kuku]

India and Pakistan have to recognize that we are in a low intensity war for quite sometime now, and the geo politic reality is that this war is about to intensify. This abject denial of it all is downright stupid.

Pakistan wants evidence against a guy who was in and Indian prison and got his freedom as a result of a god damn hijacking.
India accuses Pakistan of killing Indian solidiers and politicians in Kashmir and Delhi and fighting a low intensity war at the same time.

This information warfare of i kill 10 i kill 100, i kill f-16, i kill su030, changes nothing except for satisfying a damn small member vanity complex.

As for all the Government of India boasting about these stupid surgical strikes, they matter less than a boiled egg to Pakistan, The idiots we end up killing can be recruited as easily as bajrang dal recruiting a valentines day protester, there is only damage which will register a high volume (across the LOC and International border) low intensity war, which raises the actual rupee/dollar cost of the war to debilitating levels, and hope our Forex reserves last the distance.

Other than that this is the same BS doing the rounds since the 90s.

[Double Edge]

The idiots we end up killing can be recruited as easily as bajrang dal recruiting a valentines day protester

No, its takes them time to train those people. When we hit a bunch of them at the train the trainer camp it sets them back. People always assume these people are cheap and easy to get. The guys who attacked Uri, Nagrota, Pathankot or even 26/11 took effort to create. In no way like bajrangis who beat up valentines day couples.

Where the savings are made is a 100 of these guys are as good as a Pak division in terms of damage they can do and do not require pensions.

I'm watching a show to do with terror financing. Stone pelters need to get paid, so that puts the lie that they are genuine protester

Rs.3k for a novice
Rs.5k for some one older
Rs.20k for a pro

Those amounts are per day

This info comes from Geelani's son in law who's been investigated by the ED for money laundering

We need to plug holes here.

[Agnostic Muslim]

1. I take it to mean they have been relocated. Where to will become clear with time.

Relocation, if true, is (a) not going to be to the former FATA given that the PA is trying to carry out reconstruction and solidify the gains against the TTP - moving the groups to the former FATA would only cause problems there, and give the PTM more propaganda points (b) is going to be part of the longer term process of 'mainstreaming'.

2. i'm not sure what is happening presently with the IAF & PAF. I thought things had cooled down since the kartapur talks were restarted recently from Pakistan. I took that as closure of hostilities.

As for F16-s used in offense, they were sent to India as a riposte. They crossed the border i understand and fired at Indian jets. If we recovered the remainder of the missile in India then it was used in an offensive operation isn't it. I don't know how many AMRAAM's were sold to Pakistan just that Pakistan used them

The 'grapevine' is that the IAF (and Modi is encouraging this because he wants a clear cut 'military victory' prior to the elections), is looking for opportunities for kinetic engagement . Instructions on the Pakistani side are to stay clear of any potential (even if minimal) violations of airspace to prevent any kinetic engagement - no recurrence of the Atlantique incident for example.

The F-16's did not cross the LoC. They were providing support for the strike package from the Pakistani side. The

It's not clear what the PAF intended to strike in Kashmir on Feb 28.

There was no intent to inflict actual damage because no damage was inflicted on the Pakistani side. On the subject of damage on the Balakot side, fanboys aside, the PAF has a lot of respect for the IAF and its capabilities, which brings to mind two possible reasons the Madrassa wasn't hit:

1. The IAF never intended to hit the Madrassa - open source reports indicate that the JeM training camp in the area was dismantled a while back. Possibly Modi wanted to demonstrate he 'did something' and use the media to obfuscate the lack of any actual damage. Note how the BJP has tried to shut down any questions or criticism over the Balakot strike claims by accusing critics of being 'anti-military', and 'anonymous' government sources have been feeding the media some pretty fantastic stories. As some analysts have argued, the goal was not to actually inflict casualties but to change the 'status quo', but that goal was undermined by the BJP need to claim casualties. Contrast that with how ISPR addressed the Pakistani strikes - immediately after the PAF strikes, Pakistan categorically stated that the Pakistani goal was to not inflict damage or casualties on the Indian military but to essentially 'make a point' that it could strike back in retaliation.

2. The IAF was intending to strike the Madrassa but the PAF response was quicker than expected resulting in the target being missed.

I lean towards the first.

[Double Edge]

Relocation, if true, is (a) not going to be to the former FATA given that the PA is trying to carry out reconstruction and solidify the gains against the TTP - moving the groups to the former FATA would only cause problems there, and give the PTM more propaganda points (b) is going to be part of the longer term process of 'mainstreaming'.

All i get is the camps are moving further away from India. To get to India they have to reach launchpads which will be vulnerable. The result should be reduced infiltration. Less infiltration less militancy. That is the desired outcome. Will take at least a year to know if this is true or not.

The 'grapevine' is that the IAF (and Modi is encouraging this because he wants a clear cut 'military victory' prior to the elections), is looking for opportunities for kinetic engagement . Instructions on the Pakistani side are to stay clear of any potential (even if minimal) violations of airspace to prevent any kinetic engagement - no recurrence of the Atlantique incident for example.

The F-16's did not cross the LoC. They were providing support for the strike package from the Pakistani side. The

There was no intent to inflict actual damage because no damage was inflicted on the Pakistani side. On the subject of damage on the Balakot side, fanboys aside, the PAF has a lot of respect for the IAF and its capabilities, which brings to mind two possible reasons the Madrassa wasn't hit:

1. The IAF never intended to hit the Madrassa - open source reports indicate that the JeM training camp in the area was dismantled a while back. Possibly Modi wanted to demonstrate he 'did something' and use the media to obfuscate the lack of any actual damage. Note how the BJP has tried to shut down any questions or criticism over the Balakot strike claims by accusing critics of being 'anti-military', and 'anonymous' government sources have been feeding the media some pretty fantastic stories. As some analysts have argued, the goal was not to actually inflict casualties but to change the 'status quo', but that goal was undermined by the BJP need to claim casualties. Contrast that with how ISPR addressed the Pakistani strikes - immediately after the PAF strikes, Pakistan categorically stated that the Pakistani goal was to not inflict damage or casualties on the Indian military but to essentially 'make a point' that it could strike back in retaliation.

2. The IAF was intending to strike the Madrassa but the PAF response was quicker than expected resulting in the target being missed.

I lean towards the first.

Not grapevine, these suggestions are made in Caspian report video. It's an opinion.

The Indian military has respect for the Pak military. Anything less would be unprofessional

In a talk an Indian air marshal when talking about the downed Pak pilot offered condolences to his grieving family for their brave son whose dad is an air marshal. It's too bad his contribution will go unnoticed.

[kuku]

No, its takes them time to train those people. When we hit a bunch of them at the train the trainer camp it sets them back. People always assume these people are cheap and easy to get. The guys who attacked Uri, Nagrota, Pathankot or even 26/11 took effort to create. In no way like bajrangis who beat up valentines day couples.

Where the savings are made is a 100 of these guys are as good as a Pak division in terms of damage they can do and do not require pensions.

I'm watching a show to do with terror financing. Stone pelters need to get paid, so that puts the lie that they are genuine protester

Rs.3k for a novice
Rs.5k for some one older
Rs.20k for a pro

This info comes from Geelani's son in law who's been investigated by the ED for money laundering

We need to plug holes here.

A single terrorist not only has the costs you mention but the cost of failure as well, out of several actions planned only a few go through.

However for Pakistan this will never be a large cost to bear, they have shown this for the last several decades, through economic highs and lows, and even after loosing half of their nation.

And as for Government of India propaganda on Kashmiri muslims from the valley not picking up arms by themselves, several of them glorify the genocide of Kashmiri Pandits, and claim that the Kashmiri Pandit was sucking off their blood for centuries and the genocide was a small payback (the same way Nazis talked about jews), the bigots claiming this need no inspiration to pick up arms, and just as the Nazis, they need to be fought at every corner, killed and buried.

[kuku]

Double Edge

This has been going on for a long time, from the 2010's Agnostic Muslim had the standard Pakistani info war argument;
Pakistan has suffered more from terrorism than anyone else,
PA is incompetent to let the groups operate from Pakistan, and not their accomplices.
We've killed more terrorists than anyone else.
No Pakistani involvement behind Mumbai Attacks and rest of attacks inside India, the attacks on Indian Embassy and missions in Afghanistan. etc. etc. everything but the obvious.

Its a broken record playing on this forum for a long long time now.

Meanwhile Let, JeM, HM continue to operate under military protection, even after the Mumbai Attacks.

You do realize that they want evidence to return an Indian fugitive who escaped as a result of a hi jacking (Masood Azhar), and they are actively hiding Dawood Ibrahim, a certified International criminal of Indian citizenship just because he helped them in the Mumbai bombings.

Its a wall and you are beating you head against it.

In 10 years from now we would be reading the same arguments and denials.

[Double Edge]

And as for Government of India propaganda on Kashmiri muslims from the valley not picking up arms by themselves, several of them glorify the genocide of Kashmiri Pandits, and claim that the Kashmiri Pandit was sucking off their blood for centuries and the genocide was a small payback (the same way Nazis talked about jews), the bigots claiming this need no inspiration to pick up arms, and just as the Nazis, they need to be fought at every corner, killed and buried.

Are those people picking up arms or encouraging others, mostly younger than themselves to do so. The age profile of the average militant is different these days. In the 90s it was in the 25 - 30 yr range. These days its ten years younger. The older ones learnt their lesson.