Jaish terrorists attack CRPF convoy in Kashmir, 40 killed

[667medic]

Because they are all looking weak after this second air strike. It's possible some more info might be released closer to the election. To rebut the opposition and keep the op fresh in people's mind.


i think we have a better idea now what to do regardless of who is in office. Just give the order and let the military handle the details. The rest is just business as usual.

Its a debatable point whether these strikes could have been launched earlier say after 26-11. Some argue the time was not right then meaning lack of international support. Others argue the obstacle was in our minds.

Who knows.

My point is not about operational effectiveness of India's response or even about India knowing what to do next. As long as the Pak public believes that They won or India lost then it's game as usual.

[Double Edge]

My point is not about operational effectiveness of India's response or even about India knowing what to do next. As long as the Pak public believes that They won or India lost then it's game as usual.

Ruling party is taking credit for the strikes despite earlier saying airstrikes must not be politicised, country should be united etc and so after doing that the opposition wants proof for everything while operations are ongoing.

Neither side can resist milking it: D

[667medic]

Ruling party is taking credit for the strikes despite earlier saying airstrikes must not be politicised, country should be united etc and so after doing that the opposition wants proof for everything while operations are ongoing.

Neither side can resist milking it: D

So India will remain a 2nd rate country locked in a never ending war with a 3rd rate country...

[Double Edge]

Masood Azhar is dying (maybe dead already - do remember OBL died lies from Musharraf). Banning him doesn't solve the Pakistani terrorism problem at hand, nor does it help solve the China nexus. At this point, it's not even a feel good factor.

Is this a Pak indication that China's technical hold might be softening ? We will know by week's end.

China's done its best to keep him off the list but there comes a point where their credibility is going to be questioned and they will also be isolated. They can't afford to turn a blind eye given what is happening in Xianjiang and who knows what's in store for them later. If these assorted groups remain as active.

Even if he is banned by the UN, JeM will take a different name overnight, transfer money to other newly created accounts, keep asking for donations to wage Jihad in India etc. In no way, this solves the Pak+China brains at work. Yeah, India can embarrass Pak directly, and China indirectly at multilateral international forums. That issue rests there.

And we will hit them wherever they set up base next.

Its the diplomats that make the biggest noise about these designations like its some magic wand once a designation is made. Programs i watch usually have diplomats so they are going to push solutions that are feasible for their community.

The only way to solve terrorism is to up the costs for the PA & ISI, and bomb Chinese infrastructure in Pak while on an air-raid. Work towards uplifting the Indian economy, while building our war arsenal. And use asymmetric warfare to keep Pakistan chaotic. Whoever said, a stable Pak is in our interests hasn't learnt anything from history. Well, a stable Pak kills our soldiers on a daily basis through use of their terrorist proxies.

I get the feeling the next strike is going to be with missiles. No planes.

Solving terrorism requires unity in the country to enact policies that will directly grapple with the problem. After 26-11 Chidambaram came up with a 5 point list. He was countered on all of them. Could be his ideas were a little too authoritarian and gave the state too much control over people's lives. Maybe there are more refined ideas today.

Let's take one proposal by Vikram Sood, mentioned his blog post some pages back. He says we should start by declaring Pakistan an enemy state. Cut off diplomatic relations and then concentrate our comprehensive national power towards strangulating them. No longer manage the problem but actively working against them. When i threw this suggestion around i got some interesting answers

(1) International community will call India a war monger and leave us to our own devices. Most probably India will become increasingly isolated on the international stage.

(2) Domestically, muslims will be alienated and this could flare up at any time into communal disharmony.

(3) The Gulf will misinterpret India as an enemy of Islam. This will not just harm India politically but also economically.

(4) There will be war hysteria most of the time which will discourage foreign investors leading to decreasing growth rates.

(5) Indian political establishment does not work cohesively. It is divided on the basis of caste,region and religion instead of specific policies like anti-terror. This is why Indians lack the sense of brotherhood for each other.This is why not everyone is going to support the idea even if the political intention is correct. This is why india will always find it difficult to fight terrorism.

So the primary obstacle is getting public support for such a policy. Sood does not care about political support that is a pol's problem. When i see the above reasons not to proceed with this idea i wonder whether Sood's enemy state blog post was made in the heat of the moment just after Pathannkot. Sounds good when you're upset but essentially unworkable in practice.

So what else is left then. What is the crux here ?

The reason behind success of terrorism is local muslim support i.e. muslim unity against non-muslim. They want a state based on islam not on the basis of anything else like secularism. The main reason behind muslim alienation in Kashmir is constitutional and legal alienation due to article 370 and article 35A. Because it is the constitutional law that binds and identifies a person as a citizen of a country and art 370 and 35A almost gives Kashmiri's a status of non-indian. This leads to the sentiment among muslims being victimised by Indian govt. and they justify jihad against India through terrorism.

To stop terrorism first constitutionally and legally integrate Kashmir into India i.e abrogate art 370 and 35A. 370 needs 2/3 majority in parliament. And for this reason massive public support is required throughout India irrespective of caste,region and religion which is what political parties like BJP are finding difficult to arrange and that is why art 370 and 35A are still there which is mentally alienating Kashmiri muslims and leading to a sense of victimisation at the hand of India there by justifying terrorism.

You can not leave everything to politicians, if you are truly a responsible citizen. Either you advocate people of india to vote for political parties who want to abolish art 370 and 35A or wait till someone else does it. Till then you have no choice but to tolerate terrorism in name of gazwa-e-hind and no surgical strike can prevent it.

[Double Edge]

So India will remain a 2nd rate country locked in a never ending war with a 3rd rate country...

It's just politics.

[Double Edge]

A Soviet/Russian Mig-21B of the IAF shooting down a F-16 of the PAF, first of its kind? Bad news for Lockheed Martin wanting to win the IAF contract for 100+ fighter jets.

So if you watched the video then you will see the technical aspects aren't an issue. However the contractual aspects might be.

Imagine we had American jets and not Mirage and we had a similar end user agreement as the Paks

The airstrikes would not be possible.

If we want american jets then we need an end user agreement like the Israelis got.

[Oracle]

Wake up and smell coffee. Just look at the response from politicians in Pakistan versus India. Sidhu is openly mocking that Balakot raid uprooted trees and the rest of the opposition is also screaming for proof of the raid. All this is playing into the hands of the Pak establishment.

It looks like there is no unanimity in the what India must do in order to handle Pak problem. No wonder the Paks are emboldened and actually think that they can win this protracted war with India...

Sidhu is a joker, Mamata Banerjee is a freaking disgusting politician. Andhra's CM too questioned the air-strikes. CM of Punjab, an ex-Army dude says "this battle can go nuclear". What we have in the political establishment of India are illiterate OR semi-educated people.

What happened in Balakot on 26th should have remained a secret. Okay, local politics you say, fine. Have the air-Marshal give out a press brief that the IAF attacked terrorist camps. That's it. Giving the estimated number of casualties etc have given other Indian politicians a chance to criticize the BJP government in the election year. Minority appeasement, in the sense that those people think there is a sizeable number of Muslims in India who support Pakistan. It's the BJP government's fault. This show should have remained under the cover.

However, if, the BJP government wants to emulate Israel, then after every terrorist strike in J&K, irrespective of Indian casualties, they should strike terrorist camps in Pak, reduce to rubble Pak posts along the LoC and IB. Close down diplomatic missions in PAK and a number of things I have said over the years. No one freaking listens. Samjhauta Express have restarted, we still trade with that terrorist country. BJP is a bania mentality party, that's why.

If a party sets expectations high, they have to act accordingly. Anything else, is excuses. When it comes to NatSec, BJP should form the Government this year, and 2 more terms after that.

N.B: When Bangladesh was being liberated, Pak press was reporting PA generals that they are winning the war. We'll know what happened.

[Oracle]

My point is not about operational effectiveness of India's response or even about India knowing what to do next. As long as the Pak public believes that They won or India lost then it's game as usual.

There is a sizeable population among the Pak population who believe otherwise. Some live abroad. Some within Pak. Some who raise their voice get kidnapped, killed, bodies not found. So many issues within Pak itself. I have talked about all of these earlier. Do me a favour, read this section of WAB more.

The only issue here is the Indian Government (I don't know F why) is not doing any propaganda. They should.

So India will remain a 2nd rate country locked in a never ending war with a 3rd rate country...

No. India will climb up the ladder to be a 1st world country, and as India rises, the costs involved for Pak will only surge.

[Double Edge]

Talking about ladders, how far up did we go with this recent drama ? looks like rung 5 is as far as we got. People think there is space to go higher with the next reprisal

[Double Edge]

The old red lines no longer exist. So what do the Paks do about it. Can they restore their deterrence to the extent pre-Balakote assuming that is even possible ? This is the question

Balakot air strikes: the end of the madman theory | ORF | Mar 05 2019

The Pakistani air raid was an attempt to restore the deterrence, and wasn’t entirely unexpected.

It was an attempt to restore their air deterrence whatever that amounts to and avoid shrinking of conventional war space otherwise they open themselves up to aysmmetric conventional attacks. it's not clear to me whether that point convinced India if at least assuaged the public in Pakistan.

What needs to be looked at more carefully is the reaction inside Pakistan, not on the street or in forums like their Parliament, but of the people who actually call the shots. All those who were warning of a nuclear holocaust suddenly seemed to be piping down. Of course, they continued to talk tough, but laced it with a heavy dose of talking peace. The nuclear threat was alluded to, not brandished. The military spokesman while expressing resolve had stopped breathing fire and was actually talking of regional development and prosperity.

Good catch given how gratuitously they'd threaten to use nukes earlier.

[Double Edge]

Not a Pak tweet. I read it from some place else. Not a bad idea to have 2-3 submarines keeping eye on the Karachi harbour.

Yeah it was a Pak tweet, they're at it again

[Oracle]

Yeah it was a Pak tweet, they're at it again

Actually I read it from the tweet of Strategic Sentinel, who probably picked it up from authorities in Pak. Deterrence based deployments are 24X7, don't know why the Paks are screaming. Paks have a navy?

Yes, it was a Pak tweet.

[Double Edge]

What happened in Balakot on 26th should have remained a secret. Okay, local politics you say, fine. Have the air-Marshal give out a press brief that the IAF attacked terrorist camps. That's it. Giving the estimated number of casualties etc have given other Indian politicians a chance to criticize the BJP government in the election year. Minority appeasement, in the sense that those people think there is a sizeable number of Muslims in India who support Pakistan. It's the BJP government's fault. This show should have remained under the cover.

FM made it clear recently that nobody releases operational details about a mission. He thinks people that don't get that shouldn't be polluting the public space with matters like this. There is something interesting here. Why is Jaitley doing the talking and not Nirmala. It would appear our defense minister isn't even in the loop. She has the title but he still speaks about it.

He's upset the opposition went to town over this because the Paks realised that the opposition was making their case and now the Paks claim the BJP pulled Pulwama for election reasons : D

Everybody's saying show us the evidence. Nobody realises that the Paks have all of it and they ain't telling. Yes, even that F16 that got blown up at high altitude and whose parts are strewn over several miles. All with the Paks.

He says the oppsition are upset that Balakote went well. No intel failure as i keep hearing so often. Western media that has no clue about this particualr part of the world does not know as well as we do what happens 100km across the border. We keep sending dossiers to the paks all the time and they don't even acknowledge the existence of any camps.

FM's particularly peeved at this piece by the former PM that puts perpetrator and victim at the same moral equivalence : (

This is the same crap you will see on foreign channels, they hyphenate victim & perpertrator. Both are as guilty. This is called neutral reporting. People telling me the world is asking for evdence and knocking us. The world isn't knocking us. Their media is. No govt had a problem with our air strike that was made public.

However, if, the BJP government wants to emulate Israel, then after every terrorist strike in J&K, irrespective of Indian casualties, they should strike terrorist camps in Pak, reduce to rubble Pak posts along the LoC and IB. Close down diplomatic missions in PAK and a number of things I have said over the years. No one freaking listens. Samjhauta Express have restarted, we still trade with that terrorist country. BJP is a bania mentality party, that's why.

Former air chief was making the case that the airforce should be used more often and be on the lookout for targets. Not just react after an attack. He was even recommending the use of attack helicopters to take out militants that hide away in a house instead of using CRPF the way we do it now. Fewer casualties will result.

Can't sit on laurels and make another movie about this strike. Have to keep mowing the grass. I think the last two actions has set the standard that no PM in the future can ignore.

If a party sets expectations high, they have to act accordingly. Anything else, is excuses. When it comes to NatSec, BJP should form the Government this year, and 2 more terms after that.

N.B: When Bangladesh was being liberated, Pak press was reporting PA generals that they are winning the war. We'll know what happened.

Hopefully if this govt can win the next election that is still two months away. They've had a 5% boost but that increase in vote share has to translate into seats.

[antimony]

FM made it clear recently that nobody releases operational details about a mission. He thinks people that don't get that shouldn't be polluting the public space with matters like this. There is something interesting here. Why is Jaitley doing the talking and not Nirmala. It would appear our defense minister isn't even in the loop. She has the title but he still speaks about it.

He's upset the opposition went to town over this because the Paks realised that the opposition was making their case and now the Paks claim the BJP pulled Pulwama for election reasons : D

Everybody's saying show us the evidence. Nobody realises that the Paks have all of it and they ain't telling. Yes, even that F16 that got blown up at high altitude and whose parts are strewn over several miles. All with the Paks.

He says the oppsition are upset that Balakote went well. No intel failure as i keep hearing so often. Western media that has no clue about this particualr part of the world does not know as well as we do what happens 100km across the border. We keep sending dossiers to the paks all the time and they don't even acknowledge the existence of any camps.

FM's particularly peeved at this piece by the former PM that puts perpetrator and victim at the same moral equivalence : (

This is the same crap you will see on foreign channels, they hyphenate victim & perpertrator. Both are as guilty. This is called neutral reporting. People telling me the world is asking for evdence and knocking us. The world isn't knocking us. Their media is. Nobody had a problem with our air strike that was made public.



Former air chief was making the case that the airforce should be used more often and be on the lookout for targets. Not just react after an attack. He was even recommending the use of attack helicopters to take out militants that hide away in a house instead of using CRPF the way we do it now. Fewer casualties will result.

Can't sit on laurels and make another movie about this strike. Have to keep mowing the grass. I think the last two actions has set the standard that no PM in the future can ignore.

Hopefully if this govt can win the next election that is still two months away. They've had a 5% boost but that increase in vote share has to translate into seats.

Why do we have political idiots within BJP spouting off on casualty figures when the the IAF or MEA official sources stayed away from specific damage numbers? As soon as goverment politicians step in, it is fair game for competing politicians to step in.

[Double Edge]

Why do we have political idiots within BJP spouting off on casualty figures when the the IAF or MEA official sources stayed away from specific damage numbers? As soon as goverment politicians step in, it is fair game for competing politicians to step in.

When they are quoting from intel sources below then what is the problem ? these figures should be seen as up to.

NTRO surveillance of JeM camp in Balakot before strikes confirmed 300 active targets

Earlier report from middle last year quoted higher figures in the camp

Pakistan army provides help to relocate terrorist camps near Muzaffarabad to Manshera, Jhelum | ET | Jul 12 2018

Am i supposed to rely on western sources ? is the west watching these things in PoJ&K ? no, i think the Indians know that part of the world better than any one else.

All this talk about evidence and casualties is missing the point. Nobody releases operational details of a mission

^THAT is the message. Pinned with a dagger on the office door of the ISI general who ordered Pulwama and the rest of them.