Stone pelting a conspiracy by Pakistan and its agents in Kashmir

[Double Edge]

Vote for what exactly? Military intervention? Sanctions?

A condemnation which they could then use in the future to browbeat us and keep the issue alive.

Not happening

[Firestorm]

I don't even mind a condemnation which will be similarly toothless. Wake me up when France refuses to sell us Rafales or Russia the S-400 because of a UNSC decision.

[Double Edge]

I don't even mind a condemnation which will be similarly toothless.

which is why i'm thinking it won't survive a vote

So what is Rishabh's problem ? he behaves as if the P5 has already condemned us.

The hectoring tone is similar to China's global times.

Wake me up when France refuses to sell us Rafales or Russia the S-400 because of a UNSC decision.

A UN SC decision won't do it. We'd need to commit a Tianamen or a jallianwala bagh.

Given we expend one soldier per 2-3 militants i think chances of that are low. The concern for collateral damage is SOP for long time now. ROE's are tight. Self defence is as far they can go.

The boys can handle a good deal of harassment too.

[Double Edge]

That's kool to know. I didn't know people supporting the opposition were so dumb.. thanks for informing me man..

This should be more up your street

The case made by liberals for abolishing the state of Jammu and Kashmir – and why it’s flawed | Scroll | Aug 14 2019

Now tell me, how many takers will there be in a place packed with "realists" ?

[Double Edge]

Was looking for something by Chris and got lucky. I don't bother with her twitter feed as its a Trump bashing playground : )

India’s Move in Kashmir: Unpacking the Domestic and International Motivations and Implications | Lawfare | Aug 12 2019

How many references has she embedded in here. Over a hundred for just an essay ?

the government announced that it was using a provision in Article 370 to eviscerate the article itself. Article 370 would still exist in India’s constitution, but it would no longer confer any special status to Kashmir. While this process was arguably a legal one, it remains to be seen whether it will be upheld in India’s supreme court, which has a mixed history of siding with the government on some occasions while against it on others.

First hurdle

The United States, which was unaware of the move, has largely seen it as an internal matter but has stated that it will continue to monitor the human rights situation such as the curfew, the media blackout and the inexplicable arrest of mainstream politicians.

Next control

Ironically, it was India’s leadership that suggested the plebiscite while Pakistan’s leadership demurred. Indian leadership understood the complexity of the region: Ladakh was mostly Buddhist, Jammu was mostly Hindu, and Kashmir was a mix of Sunni and Shia Muslims. Religious minorities such as Christians and Sikhs were also spread across the territories, and there was widespread anger over the rapacity and brutality of the Pakistani invaders.

Pakistan rightly assessed that a plebiscite would not be propitious. In any event, Pakistan never fulfilled the first necessary, but insufficient, condition for this plebiscite to materialize. (Pakistan continues to persist with mendacious demands for said plebiscite in international fora in hopes that audiences will be unfamiliar with the empirical facts of the case.)

Not only did we take the case to the bloody UN, we also were the ones to insist on a plebiscite. Fancy that..

Since 1950, several developments have materially affected the import of Article 370. In 1959, Pakistan discovered that Chinese maps had claimed part of its territory as China’s own. Unable to obtain a security pact with India against China, Pakistan’s military dictator Ayub Khan decided that it was best to press for peace with China. As a part of this rapprochement, in 1963 Pakistan ceded part of Pakistani-controlled Kashmir, the Shaksgam Valley.

The thought that the Paks would want a security pact with us to defend against Chinese claims on their territory is mind boggling : O

In the near term, it is difficult to assess what will happen as a result of this bold move. While India may have taken this move in an effort to bolster security in advance of a U.S.-Taliban deal that could usher in renewed violence, critics fear that the move may actually make such escalation of violence more likely. However, it will take some time to discern which side is most correct, because Kashmir has been on a tight clampdown, making resistance impossible and making it difficult for Pakistan to coordinate with its assets in the valley. Parts of Kashmir are under a curfew that is expected to last months. And there is no indication of when jailed politicians will be let go.

The question

the state’s police will not answer to Kashmir-based politicians; rather, the police will answer to the center. Security officials have opined that under the previous regime, politicians who were sympathetic to or subsidized by militant organizations or their handlers in Pakistan would leak operational details undermining the efficacy of such operations. Indian interlocutors are optimistic that this move will help the center better control violence in Kashmir.

The bet

To be clear, the BJP did not undertake this initiative for simply benign reasons like cleaning up corruption or developing the state; it undertook it as a part of its long-standing political agenda of privileging Hindus and suppressing Muslims. Many left-leaning Hindus and politically engaged Muslims read the downgrading of the state to a union territory as a signal that the Hindu-chauvinist regime cannot trust Muslims to be in charge of a state.

They also read this as a part of a campaign to target issues that have most impacts for Muslims under the guise of feminism and development. (For example, the government made it illegal for men to divorce their wives by uttering or texting “Talaq” three times. Even though the practice is illegal in many Muslim countries and contravenes the spirit of the Quran itself, which dedicates an entire chapter to laying out the lengthy process of divorce, many Indian Muslims saw this as an erosion of Muslim personal law. The government justified the move by referencing concern for Muslim women.)

Oddly, the government has been silent on issues that derive from Hindu practices that harm far more women (such as dowry deaths, female infanticide and female feticide), all of which admittedly are illegal even if offenders are rarely prosecuted.

Moreover, the BJP has been clear that it seeks to eliminate any constitutional provision of Muslim personal law, which is also consistent with the spirit of the Indian Constitution, which articulates the aspiration for all Indians to come under a uniform civil code. Muslims fear that any such uniform civil code will privilege Hindu practices while denigrating their own.

Ironically, persons who genuinely support secularism in India should be willing to concede that Article 370 in effect rendered residents of the state second-class citizens. With Article 370 gone, the government has a direct responsibility to treat the citizens of these two union territories with the same rights and privileges of Indians elsewhere. This will be a challenge given the ongoing security concerns in the state, which seem to worsen with every news cycle.

The agenda

Pakistan may be tempted to underwrite terrorist operations in Kashmir or elsewhere in India in response. It rightly understands that when it comes to Trump, it holds the advantage because of the president’s desire to get out of Afghanistan. The United States would find it difficult to come down hard on Pakistan when Pakistan is the key to Trump’s efforts to “sever and saunter” from a war that is unpopular with his base and other Americans. However, India has signaled that it is no longer willing to acquiesce to Pakistani bullying, and thus any gambit right now may be inordinately risky with near certainty of retaliation.

If the Paks think they can get away with attacking us then they will attack us. US might not be able to do anything but the FATF will be hard pressed to let them get away with it.

There is virtually no chance of a resolution with Pakistan, because Pakistan’s demand to the territory is ideological and moored in the Two Nation Theory. If Pakistan were to let go of its territorial demands, this would be tantamount to conceding the death of the Two Nation Theory itself.

Nothing changes except we get better at defending J&K with central control.

However, if the BJP only treats this move as a part of its communal “to-do” list, the security situation in Kashmir may well decline precipitously. While Indian officials seem hopeful that the arrest of politicians, the indefinite curfew and the communications blackout will suppress violence in the near term—aided by the extensive deployment of security forces—this posture cannot be maintained indefinitely.

At some point, India will have to diminish the oppressive conditions that currently obtain in the state.

At the same time, if India genuinely wants to mainstream Kashmiris, this effort cannot begin and end with this legal sleight of hand. India must follow through with its various commitments to develop the state and to extend to Kashmiri residents all of the rights and privileges of Indian citizenship. Should it fail to do so, Pakistan will be loitering like a hyena waiting to pounce on the injured carcass of Kashmir.

Bottom line!

[Double Edge]

Paks claim there is no such thing as this instrument of accession. Really ?

The Backstory of Article 370: A True Copy of J&K’s Instrument of Accession | The Wire | Aug 05 2019

It will not be an exaggeration to describe the IoAs and the standstill agreements as the threads that knit the disparate administrative jurisdictions into a Union. Instead of tucking them away and providing access to researchers only on demand, the National Archives should work with the government to display them in a museum which people can visit at will. Citizens have the right to know more about these building blocks that became India.

[ambidex]

Posting after a long time.

Good to see Oracle and few other members keeping up with the discussions on ever changing Indian affiars.

I will try to add my few points.

Before that Congratulations to Indian nationalists for abrogation of section 370 and integration (technical) of Kashmir back to the Union of India.

Next target should be Pakistan and China occupied Kashmir.

[Double Edge]

Some people told me we could take the PO J&K case to the ICJ and win. We need to get a bit stronger and more influential first. So 5-10 years from now.

Does this means the Paks vacate if they lose ? No.

What was taken by war can only be won the same way.

And for that we need to wait for an opportunity.

[ambidex]

Paks claim there is no such thing as this instrument of accession. Really?

The Backstory of Article 370: A True Copy of J&K’s Instrument of Accession | The Wire | Aug 05 2019

Pakistanis claims are quite fluid and convenient.

Here is the generic Chronology:

Pakistan does not accept IOA, deny its existence, call it fake.

When India shows IOA duly signed by the King accepted by GGOI, Pakistan shifts to UNO resolution.

When discussing on UNO resolution bilaterally where they are implied as aggressors and categorically asked to leave the territory before the plebiscite, Pakistan misquotes, misconstrue, cherry-pick what is suited to the lowest denominator that it is now a disputed territory.

If it was disputed then why sign Sino-Pakistan Frontier Agreement in 1963 to further dimming any possible agreement on Kashmir with India?


Breach UN resolution conditions of ceasefire and respecting the LOC in 1965. Unleash Operation Gibraltar inspired by the Muslim invasion of Spin.

Keep making fallacious equivalences of Junagarh and Hyderabad.

Support insurgencies in Northeast using East Pakistan.

Crackdown in East Bangladesh to make it a strategic stronghold and discipline its population who may pose challenges in future. Let the refugee crisis exacerbate, enjoy it as India's problem, commit mass rapes and murders of Hindu population. Casus Belli for India as Millions of East Pakistanis poured in India. India reacted after a long time, supported their rebellion, Pakistan defeated, Signs Simla agreement.

UNO resolution killed formally which they never abided by in the first place.

The matter is now bilateral.

Subtly start denouncing Simla Agreement when very close to weaponize Nuclear device under the watch of friend USA and China. Keep asking for 3rd Party mediation.

Establish ISI Punjab cell and start supporting Sikh Separatism in Punjab.

India captures 'no man's land' 'demarcated area' 'out the preview of UN resolution' Siachen after intel of Pakistani plans to do the same. How RAW Outsmarted ISI To Win Siachen For India Through 'Operation Meghdoot'

Use it as a breach of UNO resolution and Simla Agreement.

Support terrorism in Punjab and Kashmir; 50K Indians killed.

The exodus of Kashmiri Pandits following their genocide and asking them to leave their women behind.

Indian army moves in Kashmir.

Pakistan openly supports terrorism and create security grid infrastructure across LOC and IB, POK to support infiltration. Thousands of Pakistani Punjabi Muslim terrorist killed along with Kashmiri terrorists. Pakistan still pays a victim. LOL

Pakistan uses India's internal politics of whore house secularism and fault lines as a pretext to design its sabotage against India and strength its claim on Kashmir.

Change of Guard in Indian Politics.

Subconventional attacks responded by conventional counter attacks.

Pakistan goes to USA calls for 3rd Party mediation, Trump agrees.

India scraps temporary provisions of special status to Kashmir.

Pakistan screams the loudest after 1971 for unknown reasons.

Pakistan call it a breach of Simla Agreement and failure of bilateralism LOL LOL LOL

370 nothing to do with IOA

370 nothing to do with UNO resolution

370 nothing to do with Bilateral agreements

370 Abrogation and reorganizing state borders and administration same as Pakistan creating separate administrative units of Azad Kashmir and Northern Area (Gilgit Baltistan).

Pakistani president call for propaganda videos.

Imran Khan sulks, uses Godwin's Law to show his illiteracy.

Pakistani minister calls for Indian Punjabis to rebel against India.

Modi Ignores them in his last speach.

[cataphract]

Next target should be Pakistan and China occupied Kashmir.

I think abrogation of 370 is the perfect first step towards making the LOC and LAC permanent borders. At the very least, firm up LAC so that China has no place in the Kashmir dispute.

[Tronic]

Opposition to the Nuke deal with Bush & more recently, the allegations of govt corruption with the Rafale deal. Both BS productions brought to you by the beloved opposition.

The first one i was not sure about though with more knowledge it should have been obvious. The NDA laid the foundation for the nuke deal post Pokhran 2. What they could not accept was losing power. The nuke deal was their baby but it was Manmohan who clinched it.

The second i called out the moment it started because chances of corruption with a G to G deal are low. Was there a controversy when we bought the mirages in the 80s. No. Why then should there be any with Rafale. And notice how they target only the high ticket items. There are others that are lower in cost but the opposition is quiet about them.

Then they started slamming his foreign policy and his galavanting around the world. The good people at RSTV made that one obvious.

I have my opinions on each one of those things but that's a discussion for another topic.. and nor am I a Congress supporter, I think they are corrupt and opportunistic to the core. That being said, choosing between the lesser of the evils, I'd personally choose Congress for India because I'm not a Hindu.. otherwise it would be akin to an African-American supporting the KKK.

Do you follow any of the links posted ? Already linked to in the Pak tribune article.

Unless specifically mentioned out to me, no I do not follow the links posted.

I prefer to let google news tell me what the top stories are for that region rather than handpicked by folks whom I percieve of having a pretty clear cut biased agenda.

They're not sleeping, they got a earful when they visited last time.

India simply doesnt have the economic pull to matter much to Canadian politicians in regards to getting "earfuls" or whatnot. Sure they would love to find an alternative to China but so far, it simply isn't.

NDP released a statement: https://www.ndp.ca/news/ndp-statemen...rights-kashmir

Trudeau is dealing with an SNC-Lavalin fallout and the last thing he probably wants is to invoke India again so close to the elections. His trip was a PR disaster; India carried out a pretty good PR hit job on him.

They are enough of a headache when it comes to Punjab as Amarinder keeps reminding us. It would behoove them not to become a PITA about Kashmir as well.

It was amusing Amarinder refused to meet the Canadian defense minister because he considered him a sympathiser of sikh extremists.

Amrinder is just mad because they wouldn't let him campaign in Canada for the last Punjab elections. It was stupid of us to put ourselves in that position in the first place. Trudeau fcked up bad on that trip.

You're being partisan. You oppose their ideology. I get that but how is it relevant when it comes to defense & foreign policy ?

I'm being no more partisan than you, DE.. Yes, I oppose their ideology because it is evil and twisted. Defense and foreign policy.. the man hasn't done anything on that side apart from some PR campaigns for his domestic audience. You have worse relations with your neighbors than under the UPA, you're not anywhere close with getting into any exclusive clubs like the NSG, and the biggest political icon in the West who Hindu nationalists worshipped, Trump, is drumming up a trade war with you... if this is your brilliant defence and foreign policy then what the heck can I say.. Modi is the messiah for the Hindu nationalists and ain't no facts going to come in the way of that..

For you everything and anything this govt does must be evil. Not a tenable position to have though i see plenty of this with the Americans. Either your preferred party is in office or we're all going to hell in a handbag eh : )

Modi isn't Trump and the BJP is nothing like the Republican Party.. One guy is just an opportunistic businessman who rode both sides of the fence and the other forged straight out of a fanatical Hindu organization.. A Republican calling for violence against minorities would be condemned by his party but Hindu nationalist doing the same gets promoted to become CM of an entire state.. apples and oranges..

[Oracle]

Tronic, the butcher of Sikhs, the Congress is the lesser evil according to you, right! When a big tree falls, the earth shakes - remember this line? How could you. You have left your country and embraced radical far left views. I was sympathetic of your views earlier, thought it might have to do something with Khalistani terrorism. Now I understand, your hatred for the BJP is built in your genes.

10 years back you were 14, you're 24 now. You have no idea about Kashmir. You know nothing about Kashmir or its history or the genocidal Pakistani terrorist army. You don't understand propaganda warfare. You don't understand issues of sovereignty or foreign policy or anything about defence when it's conducted by the BJP. You're still a kid immersed in radical left wing extremism views and you're calling DE a paid government agent. DE is centre-left, and as far as I know, he supports policies that affect Union of India. DE and me (centre-right) have crossed swords more often than not, but I respect his views, or give him a piece of my mind. But, never have I ever called him a paid agent of the GoI. This is what Pakistani idiots do in social media and message boards. This thread is about Kashmir. Either talk about it, or leave it to us. You can shit about Modi, RSS on Twitter or wherever you and your terrorist Pakistani pals see fit. Stop shitting on this thread.

[Tronic]

Tronic, the butcher of Sikhs, the Congress is the lesser evil according to you, right! When a big tree falls, the earth shakes - remember this line? How could you. You have left your country and embraced radical far left views. I was sympathetic of your views earlier, thought it might have to do something with Khalistani terrorism. Now I understand, your hatred for the BJP is built in your genes.

Congress is a lesser evil because atleast they are shameful enough to try to hide their genocidal tendencies.. Hindu nationalists make everything an Ali-Bajrangi contest.. They are the ones tearing India apart..

As for my "radical far left views".. I'm a bigger supporter of free market capitalism than the populist Indian government so I'll need you to elaborate my "radical far left views"..

10 years back you were 14, you're 24 now.

Look at my join date. 27 Dec 2004.. that's 15 years back.. I'm not 24, do the math again.

You have no idea about Kashmir. You know nothing about Kashmir or its history or the genocidal Pakistani terrorist army. You don't understand propaganda warfare. You don't understand issues of sovereignty or foreign policy or anything about defence when it's conducted by the BJP. You're still a kid immersed in radical left wing extremism views and you're calling DE a paid government agent. DE is centre-left, and as far as I know, he supports policies that affect Union of India. DE and me (centre-right) have crossed swords more often than not, but I respect his views, or give him a piece of my mind. But, never have I ever called him a paid agent of the GoI.

Are you mad about me not toeing BJP's line on Kashmir or me allegedly calling DE a "paid agent"? Not sure when I used that language. I merely asked him a question; not sure why that is hitting a nerve?

This is what Pakistani idiots do in social media and message boards. This thread is about Kashmir. Either talk about it, or leave it to us. You can shit about Modi, RSS on Twitter or wherever you and your terrorist Pakistani pals see fit. Stop shitting on this thread.

Except with a Hindu nutjob party at the helm, Kashmir is intertwined with religion and ideology.. As for terrorist Pakistani pals or whatever; I dont see why you see yourselves any different than the Pakistanis across the border.. You both now share the same ideology and now both of you even support your respective country's annexation of Kashmir. Moreover, Modi's done a great job hyphenating India-Pak again so now you can again be referred to in the same breath.. brilliant foreign policy.. one step closer to the "Superpower by 2020" we were told back in 2014..

[Oracle]

Congress is a lesser evil because atleast they are shameful enough to try to hide their genocidal tendencies.. Hindu nationalists make everything an Ali-Bajrangi contest.. They are the ones tearing India apart..

As for my "radical far left views".. I'm a bigger supporter of free market capitalism than the populist Indian government so I'll need you to elaborate my "radical far left views"..

India is more than Bajrang Dal or the VHP. Those have little support from mainstream Hindus.

Congress is the bigger evil because it ruled India for more than 6 decades, and didn't do anything to advance the country instead of lining their pockets, corrupting the whole country on socialist principles and organising riots when it suit their election gains. Congress declared emergency and arrested most opposition leaders. Sanjay Gandhi sterilised young men during that era. You know less than you pretend to know. You might want to check the riots during Congress rule and compare it with BJP rule. Your views are far left extreme because of your hate towards the RSS/BJP, and not seeing national security as the plank.

Right-wing != Modi. My support is issue based. If a government does good work, they have my support. No ifs and buts. I criticize based on issues, not wanton hate.

Look at my join date. 27 Dec 2004.. that's 15 years back.. I'm not 24, do the math again.

You might be 30, doesn't negate the fact that like most left wing extremists and liberals, you know jack about Article 370 or Kashmir.

Are you mad about me not toeing BJP's line on Kashmir or me allegedly calling DE a "paid agent"? Not sure when I used that language. I merely asked him a question; not sure why that is hitting a nerve?

I am not mad about you, it's your left wing extremist views I contest. Your posts are here for all to see. A slight change of language doesn't make it extremist free.

You are not hitting any nerves here. I am just appalled at your comments about Kashmir. Why was Sikhism formed? You are a Sikh. Act like a Sikh. Don't become one of those Khalistani puppets who remain at the mercy of the ISI for their bread and butter.

Except with a Hindu nutjob party at the helm, Kashmir is intertwined with religion and ideology.. As for terrorist Pakistani pals or whatever; I dont see why you see yourselves any different than the Pakistanis across the border.. You both now share the same ideology and now both of you even support your respective country's annexation of Kashmir. Moreover, Modi's done a great job hyphenating India-Pak again so now you can again be referred to in the same breath.. brilliant foreign policy.. one step closer to the "Superpower by 2020" we were told back in 2014..

Why don't you form a political party and contest against the BJP then? Sitting 1000 of miles away, you throw bile at the elected government of India. Read threads and discussions here before your next vomit. No country supports Pakistan now, other than China. NO COUNTRY. It's a FP win. It's this government's outreach to the powerful middle-eastern countries that did this trick.

A hardline Modi vis-a-vis Pakistan is better than a eunuch Manmohan Singh.

I have talked about Kashmir at length here in many threads. So, instead of throwing your idiocy here, go read up on those, and contest them if you think those are wrong. I am different than those Pakistanis across the border as I have not picked up a gun, nor do I espouse radical militant islam, nor have we Hindus crossed the border and killed hundreds of innocent Pakistani men, women and children. India learnt it the hard way after Rajiv was killed. Since then, not only India, even the US has kept it hands out.

Kashmir was not annexed. Get it into your head once and for all, the princely state of Kashmir JOINED India, in full. As I said before, Kashmir is Indian real-estate, in FULL. Go read up on UN resolutions. I doubt if you have read up even on those, and have any idea how terrorism and radical militant islam is fuelled by the notorious Pakistani Army and their stooges the ISI, along with petro-dollars.

As far as 2002 riots are concerned, you think muslims would get away burning and killing innocent Hindu men, women and children? It was a reaction of years of Pakistan fulled extremism, bombings, terrorism - pan India. Unfortunate, innocents got killed, but that's the way it is when riots happen. In a 3rd world country, where police does not file an FIR when someone goes on to report a mobile theft, only fools would assume the Police can be everywhere, all the time.

You have come after a long time. Please take some time out, and read this section of this board and the many different threads before jumping to conclusions.

[Oracle]

Destroying Kashmir

Lives in India, eats in India, but this old ******'s heart beats for terrorist state of Pakistan. Closet jihadi. 100% he jumped out in joy when 9/11 happened. Muslims have a tendency to blame everyone else for their miseries.