Stone pelting a conspiracy by Pakistan and its agents in Kashmir

[Double Edge]

1:04 - 1:35

where ?



al jazeera's editing : D

[Double Edge]

Labour MP's should not be surprised if an elected govt keeps its promises : D





Cheers!

[Freyr]

We'll have this situation for at least another six months. After that they will be out of funds and support.

Is that your opinion or are you singing that from the 1914 hymn sheet??

[IND76]

Well what he has stated is well documented pattern in last two decades. Pakistan after getting caught with hiding Osama bin laden has lost the trust of its supporters and no one wants to be seen to siding with terror state.

[Double Edge]

Is that your opinion or are you singing that from the 1914 hymn sheet??

heh, when WW1 began they said it will be over by Xmas. Yes, we're saying the same thing. Xmas is white in Srinagar. So whatever fight that does not conclude before will have to wait for spring.

That's what the analyst linked to earlier said. The move affects the political classes more than it does the people. They will have an interest to stir things up. How long for is the question. We will be throwing money at the place, unlike in the past where it ended up frittered away by the forty or so families that control things there, this time it will reach the people.

[Double Edge]

[Double Edge]

Kashmir Banega Pakistan: A dream sold to brainwash us since childhood now lies in tatters | The Print | Aug 09 2019

Everyone in the ruling elite sold the ‘Kashmir banega Pakistan’ chooran to the best of their benefit

– those in the Pakistani military to keep themselves viable,
- the politicians to use it during elections,
- the religious cartel to fan anti-Hindu sentiments,

and the ordinary Pakistani to just watch all of them make hay.

Pakistan needs to stop thinking of Kashmir as an unfinished business of Partition | The Print | Aug 08 2019

The Kashmiri leadership now has three choices:

- it could take the matter to the Indian Supreme Court and argue that the decision violates Indian constitutional principles;

- it could mobilise protests that could turn the Kashmir valley into a South Asian West Bank, along with the misery that might bring for the Kashmiri people; or

- it could try and see how to extract maximum advantage from the new order.

[Freyr]

heh, when WW1 began they said it will be over by Xmas. Yes, we're saying the same thing. Xmas is white in Srinagar. So whatever fight that does not conclude before will have to wait for spring.

That's what the analyst linked to earlier said. The move affects the political classes more than it does the people. They will have an interest to stir things up. How long for is the question. We will be throwing money at the place, unlike in the past where it ended up frittered away by the forty or so families that control things there, this time it will reach the people.

I pray you are right...

[Double Edge]

I pray you are right...

Palki said it best

The challenge ahead

[Double Edge]

[Tronic]

Let's be clear by what "youth" means here because in india you are youth until 50 : )

These youth are nothing more than teenagers. Which means they were born towards the tail end of the insurgency that ended in 2002. That's a different age group when compared with the 90s where militants were 25 -30 and whose numbers were ten times more going by casualty counts for each year in the 90s as released by the govt.

So these militants are younger and they want to take on pro's. How sustainable will that be. It's clear that people in the 25-30 group don't want to get into militancy again. So the Paks tried to catch them at a younger age. Impressionable and easily led. The problem is these guys have a life expectancy of just a few months after they announce their positions on social media. Numerous pleas by the DGMO to mothers to keep their kids from going the wrong way.

So i'm not worried about these "youth" as they have no chance and once the support networks they depend on are weakened and ultimately dismantled whatever resistance left will be done. Why militants get idealised is because we don't police their funerals. So they turn into public events and avenues for further recruitment.

At some point the people there realise this path yields no divdends. I advocate the present approach because i don't see us fighting ten year olds next.

I never said you should be worried about the Kashmiris overthrowing Indian rule. Ofcourse they are not a military threat; the Indian armed forces outnumber the entire Kashmir valley's population man for man.

My sentiment revolves around the subjugation of the Kashmiris. I do get that warning Kashmiri mothers to keep their sons away from rebelling against India is a good tactic to instill fear in their minds from picking up the gun. In my mind, it just doesn't convert the Kashmiris to "Indians". Personally, I have a problem with subjugating native populations but I never questioned India's ability to do so; no need for you to worry in that regard. You missed my point.

Nobody i know of or read advocates genocide. The allegation by the other side is that is the end game. Funny since that have a history of doing just that as well as ethnic cleansing. So careful who you follow.

I don't affiliate with any "other side".

What i can say is there is no sympathy for militancy in the rest of the country. Why do they hate us so much.

Atleast you admit the Kashmiris do hate to be ruled by you.

And the people leading this position are the young. They are impatient and demand results. They are the ones that put this govt into office back in 2014. Given the mandate for a second term this govt has been seen to deliver. This more than anything explains their success. Over any ideology and they've learnt that and soft pedal. I know this because when i follow pro-hindu sites they always complain about the govts lack of delivery in this regard. What have they really done for Hindus in the end.

From my perspective, they've hijacked the country
with their Hindutva from top to bottom. India is the perfect example of tyranny of the majority. As for hindu fanatics complaining it's still not enough.. what's news about that? You could build gas chambers for the Muslims and they'd still clamour for more.

Yeah, blame the indian govt's media game for that. All they get there is Pakistan radio. This will change now.

Ehmmm... they have the internet... Unless the Indian government keeps the gag on them forever, they will eventually get access to the outside.

First, we deal with those that challenge us in our own country.

Yeap.. Can try running em over with tanks next if nothing else works.

As for the PA we've shown an appetite to go after their proxies anywhere in Pakistan. The PA is fighting us through their auxiliaries. It's sad there are people that willingly becomes pawns for the other side. The ultimate Pak win is if they can use our people against us. And they've been at it for decades now, the only place they get any traction is in the erstwhile state of J&K.

I haven't seen this "appetite" you talk of. Modi did some good propaganda stunts but nothing really new which Indian commandos hadn't been doing since the late 90s or early 2000s. That air strike was a good change but the aftermath not so much. The Paks clearly won that propaganda stunt. None of that alters the ground realities with regards to Pakistan or its proxies one bit. Hell, the PAF carried out a retaliatory air action right the next day. So much for deterrent...

You're being cynical. This govt went in with an intent to fix the problem in Kashmir. That they have been doing consistently with policy over the years. One group isn't going to call the shots for the entire state any longer.

Yes, the Hindu right overlords will call the shots over the Muslim valley from Delhi. Modi did that much for sure. So yes, he is fixing the "problem" as seen through the eyes of the Hindu fanatics, i.e. fixing a muslim population with a boot to the neck. Others, such as me, dont see the problem in the same light and in my opinion, this man and his posse have just exacerbated the problem even more.

This is also why I dont see any path here unless this Hindu government plans to also build hindu settlements in Kashmir to gradually drown out the Muslims of the valley. Other option is for the Hindu government to permanently station thousands of military forces in the valley to keep it as a permanent open air concentration camp.

Once the delimitation is completed, elections will be held. These people are free to stand for office. You make it sound like emergency was declared and the govt toppled. No, did not happen that way.

I don't care what the official indian propaganda spin is on the whole thing but common man, dont insult my intelligence. We both know how the government was hijacked and we both know the administrator of this region will be hand picked by the Hindu government in Delhi, not elected by the Kashmiris.

I guess this what the Muftis and Abdullahs get for shaking hands with the Hindu right. Now they have a gaping stab wound in the back with no coming back to power over their territory.

I've looked into this and it turns out the people lynched were cattle rustlers. Gangs that go around pinching cattle for sale. This is a problem in some states and is the basis for enacting cow slaughter bans. We don't have this problem in the south so i conclude beef slaughter won't be banned here ever. Why the southern model isn't followed elsewhere in the country is for those states with a problem to answer. Outright bans are not the solution. Criminalising sales isn't getting at the root of the problem. It's funny that people believe this is because of religious sentiment because religion has never been the basis for these laws at all. Fan boys will push that line though.

That's jumping through a lot of twists and turns to be apologetic for a bunch of religious nuts..

Here's the silver lining DE.. Muslims and Dalits are being lynched by Hindu mobs for allegedly eating, smuggling or having the intention to smuggle beef or cattle.. Cows are holy to the Hindus, the ones doing all the lynching, who have been emboldened by the fact that they now have a Hindu government, their brethrens, in power.

Cattle rustlers, cattle gangs, cow ban slaughter laws, nothing to do with religion.. that's all hogwash DE. Let's talk about the religious nuts actually doing all the lynching..

Temporary. I know it looks like police state and what not but the intent was purely precautionary. Not because the condition in Kashmir is detoriaiting or has detoriated.

Precautionary? You're kidding me right?

Nothing precautionary about it. Any subjugated people in the world would react violently to having their rights abruptly snatched from them. Heck, the US constitution has the second amendment precisely for this reason. You need those forces to keep subjugating the Kashmiris, who I imagine are probably very ticked off right now, and rightly so.

How long will it take ? Can you substantiate in what ways they are advancing this exclusionary goal. Keep in mind we don't have such a history to begin with or we'd never have been invaded in the first place.

Nehru's legacy extends over half a century. These guys have only completed five years. It's too early to say whether they will get a third term. Only if the opposition crumbles further. A weak opposition is never a good thing in a democracy.

Nehru's legacy died the day the Hindu right took over the country. There is no history of such because like you said the Hindu right has only been in power for 5 years.

Oh, and what opposition?

Why do you say no minority can live with dignity under this govt ? Look at the whole country and tell me.

Who wants to live as a second class citizen in a Hindu Republic? I have seen the videos of bloodied Muslim men, hands folded, begging for mercy in front of a dozen fanatical nuts forcing them to chant Hindu slogans. Dalits don't have it any better. Not that these hate crimes did not take place before, but now they take place with a new confidence of having a Hindu government filled with plenty of hindu nuts who have risen the ranks by bullying and enticing hatred against minorities.

So yes, no minority can live with dignity as second class citizens in a country run by Hindu fanatics.

Yes because this bogey had been going around since '47.

Hindu fanatics weren't in power since '47. They are now. Hence, no longer a bogey.

How ridiculous does it sound to advocate for partition because even Nehru & Gandhi cannot be trusted. It means that no Hindu leader can ever be trusted isn't it. Modi & co. aren't falling for this line and won't pander to it. This attitude then gets them labelled as anti-minority.

It's actually quite the opposite. Nehru & Gandhi's narrative was for a secular country for all religions and people. It was Pakistan and the separatists trying to paint India as a Hindu country and trying to counter Nehru's narrative. Modi is simply the realization of India as a Hindu country and hence that propaganda of the past is no longer propaganda but an actual reality.

Meaning that only an openly pro-minority govt is acceptable. That isn't a secular govt by definition either then is it.

No one has said that and that has never been the case. Hating on the weak minorities is just part of the Hindu right's ideology which creates a bogeyman for the majority's insecurities to feed off of. The Nazis did the same with their Jewish minorities and we know how many Hindu right nuts have publically shown admiration for the nazis in the past.

Heck, even Haaretz once did an article noting the same:
https://www.haaretz.com/whdcMobileSi...rise-1.5628532

Your argument is a mirror image of those that DO advocate for a hindu govt because the previous govt did not understand the meaning of the word secular.

You perceive a move towards secular as pro hindu. The fanboys yell we are a hindu rashtra. Both of you feed of each other.

Leave me out of it.

lol... an openly Hindu government is your definition of India's move towards "secularism". This is why this "secular" government of yours has building a Hindu Ram temple as part of its election manifesto.

An exception in UP does not a rule make. Is that all there is show for the last five years ?

UP is the norm of this Hindu government, not an "exception". Those lynchings are not just in UP but all across the Hindi cow belt.

On the economic part, there is also that case of India's economic numbers possibly being fudged up but I'll leave that for another topic.

They can change the names of the cities but people are going to refer to them as they learned them. If they can do more than that then great but cosmetic name changes just pander to the language chauvinists. We get plenty of this in the south.

Oh yea, totally.. brush it under the rug.. no biggie.. just a small name change, right? Nothing to do with ideology or the Hindu government trying to scrub the Islamic past of the country.

I don't have a problem if they do get it over and done with. It's just a property dispute that got blown way way out of proportion.

Thats obvious that you dont have a problem. Was that even my point?

Democracy has to be inclusive and this means pandering to the lowest common denominator in the mosque and the temple.

What democracy?

Muslims don't treat mosques as religious sites. They are just a place to pray in. Given them some other plot and build them a mosque. Let's move on.

Why cant they give the Hindus another plot, build them a temple and "move on"? Oh right, it's a Hindu country, a Hindu government, by the Hindus for the Hindus.. Now, the arguments will come how holy the land is for the Hindus but the Muslims should just bugger off. It's more than a 400 year old mosque, I'd consider that historic enough. Its just too bad that it was demolished by Hindu fanatics and now those same fanatics are in power and will be busy scrubbing that place clean.. "Move on" you say..

And the media pointing it out. As well as social media. If anything goes down, everybody knows. This is self-limiting.

That only makes a difference in liberal countries with moral value systems like in the West, not Middle eastern or South Asian countries where the majority rules by tyranny over their minorities.

I mean look at you, an English speaking urbanite yet a full fledged apologetic for these Hindu nutjobs. Shows the stark difference in values between the West and the East.

Leftists want to include everybody usually. Equal treatment. Equal everything. Why disenfranchise Madhesis then ? no the problem was the hills people in charge weren't left in belief. Only in name. I have to say other than India. Every country that neighbours ours has a terrible record when it comes to dealing with minorities.

So now, we're going to teach the Nepalis what it means to be "left". Lol.. common. We both know what got BJP's goat was the day the Nepalis decided to scrap being called a "Hindu" country from their constitution.

I decided to go with the vote in 2014. If people think this govt can deliver then i want to get to know them, who they are and what they want to do. Since i follow foreign policy & defense i found this govt delivering on these two aspects better than previous govts. It was enough for me to vote for them a second time.

Yea, well it's easy to not care about the over dosage of Hindutva when you're born a Hindu and dont have to worry about family members being lynched by Hindu fanatics.

I live here, i can't say i see what you see. Maybe you can give me some pointers.

I'm sure we both see the same things, it's just our ideology differs quite a bit from one another. You are also part of the ruling majority so I'm sure that skews your perspective quite a bit.

I highly recommend you look up talks by Walter Anderson. Hindutva has many meanings depending on who you talk to, kinda like azaadi. Its funny an American is an authoritative voice on this subject because an Indian cannot be trusted to be objective enough on the subject. Would be either pro or anti.

I judge based on how a purported ideology treats its weaker sections of society as practiced in the world (which BJP drums up as their ideology). On paper, even Islam is the religion of peace.

Ideas i've heard are to settle ex-military there. This will then act as a buffer. I doubt that will happen. The Pandits aren't coming back. So it will be others. See, NE states that had insurgency and are more peaceful now. That's one model.

So now you have heard about the planned Hindu settlements in Kashmir where before you hadn't.. go figure.

People talk about a repeat of the Punjab model. I don't know if that is feasible. But people see militancy in Punjab ended for good and that is the end goal here. How we get there is to be seen.

Punjabis ended Punjab militancy because there was a big landowning upper class with too much to loose from a drawn out conflict. The militants got choked off of all support. In Kashmir that is not going to happen as even the upper class is being humiliated and getting their rights snatched from them. The separatists in Kashmir will get plenty of support.

What did that govt do, what did the centre do when a quarter of a million people were ethnically cleansed from the valley ?

So, this is your reason for supporting a communal Hindu party? Revenge against the Muslims..

Where in the country have so many people been made to leave on the basis of their beliefs.

1947 Partition..

Does that register with you at all. Because it quite frankly frightened me.

Islamists disgust me as much as Hindu fanatics. You all register with me loud and clear.

See, previous reply. That Ladakh MP's rousing speech in parliament yesterday proof enough ?

Ladakh now becomes India's first Buddhist majority state. Given they are the second most important Budddhist site after Lhasa and how China is trying to erase that culture they are 200% loyal.

How is that in any way a reply to what I wrote? Kashmiri politicians are still under gag. Ladhaki politician or Hindu politicians from Jammu rejoicing is suppose to make me puff up my chest? I'm sure it does yours.. but I don't have any axes to grind against Muslims..

[Double Edge]

I never said you should be worried about the Kashmiris overthrowing Indian rule. Ofcourse they are not a military threat; the Indian armed forces outnumber the entire Kashmir valley's population man for man.

Don't tell me you believe this Pak myth about 800k Indian troops stationed in the valley. A former Major, Gaurav Arya exposed this a while back. See, its physically impossible to get that many troops into an area that is 140 X 20 km. The real number is around 160k, with support staff making it 250k. So no you do not have a soldier outnumbering the Kashmir population man for man : )

I don't affiliate with any "other side".

No intent to imply that.

Atleast you admit the Kashmiris do hate to be ruled by you.

10% of 8 million for the entire state oppose. And these hardliners hijack the conversation and spread their narrative. What is that narrative.

Pro Sunni, Valley & male should over rule everybody else. Dogra, Pahadi, Shia, Buddhist, women and everybody else from the Union of India.

From my perspective, they've hijacked the country
with their Hindutva from top to bottom. India is the perfect example of tyranny of the majority. As for hindu fanatics complaining it's still not enough.. what's news about that? You could build gas chambers for the Muslims and they'd still clamour for more.

You don't have democracy in a republic. The only place that has democracy is Switzerland. Direct democracy. Republics exist precisely to prevent a tyranny of the majority. Bound by a constitution with laws and a SC that enforces them. The people complaining aren't fanatics but moderate sympathisers. I find increasingly these sympathisers are the sharper critics of this govt. Even then they tend to put it across subtly for fear of being called sell outs.

Ehmmm... they have the internet... Unless the Indian government keeps the gag on them forever, they will eventually get access to the outside.

Temporary for now. There was no gag, to the contrary Indian media does not get in there due to security reasons. All Kashmiri media is pro-separatist if they want to be safe. Skews things a great deal. It's only recently the Indian govt is trying to up its media game but its far behind.

Yeap.. Can try running em over with tanks next if nothing else works.

That would be a win for them. To be handled with proportion & sensitivity. We will not have another Jallianwalla bagh. The PM set the right tone in his speech. No triumpalism. No saying we are teaching them a lesson. Fanboys and some of the media outlets aren't taking heed. They are pouring petrol on a smouldering fire.

I haven't seen this "appetite" you talk of. Modi did some good propaganda stunts but nothing really new which Indian commandos hadn't been doing since the late 90s or early 2000s. That air strike was a good change but the aftermath not so much. The Paks clearly won that propaganda stunt. None of that alters the ground realities with regards to Pakistan or its proxies one bit. Hell, the PAF carried out a retaliatory air action right the next day. So much for deterrent...

Then you have not been paying attention. When the raid in 2016 took place, people said it was done before. Yes, smaller versions of it. The change this time was you had a PM who owned the decision. This means publically admitting to crossing the LoC. This earlier govts did not want to admit. Still people were not impressed but this was a major change in the govt's thinking.

That raid formed the basis for the next move, the air raid into Pakistan proper. Now the entire area of Pakistan is open to an Indian reprisal. Another major mindset change. What it did was flip things about. Earlier a terrorist attack occurred and the world said India must show restraint. Now, the terrorist act is the provocation to which the world acts. Not India's reaction. Nobody condemned the air raid. All of a sudden India now has a right to self defense. So after we whack them the world is telling Pakistan to show restraint. See the difference ? this is the new norm. I can only put this down to the excellent diplomatic outreach of this govt. All those trips abroad paid off.

See Shekhar's video a few posts back for how we've flipped more things for the Paks. What used to be their domain has now become ours and they are on the back foot having to react. All this in the space of a few months.

The Pak air action was for show for their own audience. How was it retaliatory. What could they target. As it turns out nothing. And we downed their F16 which was never found because it was scooting away with a Mig21 hot on its tail into PoK.

The Paks won the propaganda stunt because we have an opposition that has no qualms mouthing out the enemy's position thereby encouraging them. There can be no two opinions in any party when it comes to national security. The way they questioned the efficacy of the strikes was disgraceful. Still, we are a free country with lively politics. Another let down occurred when the pilot was captured. The Paks managed to game that on social media. To get Indians to plead peace just because one pilot got captured ?!? Info warfare is a new area we are getting into. We will get better.

[Double Edge]

Yes, the Hindu right overlords will call the shots over the Muslim valley from Delhi. Modi did that much for sure. So yes, he is fixing the "problem" as seen through the eyes of the Hindu fanatics, i.e. fixing a muslim population with a boot to the neck. Others, such as me, dont see the problem in the same light and in my opinion, this man and his posse have just exacerbated the problem even more.

This is also why I dont see any path here unless this Hindu government plans to also build hindu settlements in Kashmir to gradually drown out the Muslims of the valley. Other option is for the Hindu government to permanently station thousands of military forces in the valley to keep it as a permanent open air concentration camp.

A boot to the neck of the separatists only and that includes the soft variety as well who put their interests ahead of state security or the people under them. Why has this problem festered for so long unless it made sense to keep it that way so as to attract funding from both India & Pakistan. Yes, the cartel there has been taken off guard. Nothing prevents them running for office, if the people will have them.

Listening to AIM's chat with Sham there is an element of truth to what you said about the govt sabotaging them. But the BJP was the junior partner and had to play the game until the whole charade fell apart. No settlements can come about unless the situation stabilises. Will there be active discrimination against all Indians there which was not the case earlier ? ie excacerbating the problem further. Threaten their lives and say J&K is for Kashmiris only. We will have to deal with that eventuality way before any settlements come up.

I don't care what the official indian propaganda spin is on the whole thing but common man, dont insult my intelligence. We both know how the government was hijacked and we both know the administrator of this region will be hand picked by the Hindu government in Delhi, not elected by the Kashmiris.

J&K will become like Delhi. The governor will be more powerful. Again as the PM said, should they be good boys & girls they can have statehood again. It's a tough love message.

I guess this what the Muftis and Abdullahs get for shaking hands with the Hindu right. Now they have a gaping stab wound in the back with no coming back to power over their territory.

What good have they been ? A cartel of forty families that pretty much monopolised the politics there. Now the space for alternative politics opens up.

That's jumping through a lot of twists and turns to be apologetic for a bunch of religious nuts..

Here's the silver lining DE.. Muslims and Dalits are being lynched by Hindu mobs for allegedly eating, smuggling or having the intention to smuggle beef or cattle.. Cows are holy to the Hindus, the ones doing all the lynching, who have been emboldened by the fact that they now have a Hindu government, their brethrens, in power.

Cattle rustlers, cattle gangs, cow ban slaughter laws, nothing to do with religion.. that's all hogwash DE. Let's talk about the religious nuts actually doing all the lynching..

Not jumping through any loops, calling out the oppositions misleading narratives. Fact of the matter is cow slaughter laws enacted in this country have absolutely zero to do with religion. Does not stop people claiming that their entire basis is such. Fans as well as detractors.

In the south we do not have much of these problems because a) we don't have major beef export industry and our laws permit farmers to use their cows until such time they are not productive and at which point they are sold. It's more complicated up north. If a villager spends up to half a lakh for a cow that then becomes an investment as important as a car for the middle class. To then have that investment stolen with no recourse to justice because the local cops have been paid off is going to lead to vigilantism. If the govt is seen as unresponsive or late to react then it is portrayed as "hindu mobs lynching muslims or dalits". This you will not hear on the private media channels. You have to hang out in the pro hindu channels to learn.

Not to say precisely what you said does not happen but it isn't the leading cause for these lynchings. In communally sensitive areas, anything can spark off unrest.

Precautionary? You're kidding me right?

Nothing precautionary about it. Any subjugated people in the world would react violently to having their rights abruptly snatched from them. Heck, the US constitution has the second amendment precisely for this reason. You need those forces to keep subjugating the Kashmiris, who I imagine are probably very ticked off right now, and rightly so.

Look at it from a security prism not a rights prism. Precautionary in the sense, when pressure builds up you don't let it out all at once but gradually.

Nehru's legacy died the day the Hindu right took over the country. There is no history of such because like you said the Hindu right has only been in power for 5 years.

Oh, and what opposition?

Can you substantiate in what ways they are advancing this exclusionary goal ?

You give the hindu right way too much credit. Hindus are not monolithic. Their USP is Modi. Take Modi out of the picture and how dominant will the BJP be ? Do you forget the ten years they spent in the opposition benches mouthing off.

What opposition ? the opposition that won the states of MP, Rajasthan & Chattisgarh only last year's end. It would seem voting at the state level where Modi isn't in the running is a different proposition than at the centre.

Who wants to live as a second class citizen in a Hindu Republic? I have seen the videos of bloodied Muslim men, hands folded, begging for mercy in front of a dozen fanatical nuts forcing them to chant Hindu slogans. Dalits don't have it any better. Not that these hate crimes did not take place before, but now they take place with a new confidence of having a Hindu government filled with plenty of hindu nuts who have risen the ranks by bullying and enticing hatred against minorities.

So yes, no minority can live with dignity as second class citizens in a country run by Hindu fanatics.

A few regrettable anecdotes. Made public for PR reasons and to appease hindu extremists. Like the ghar vapasi events.

In 2014 i asked a friend whether he was nervous we would become some Hindy republic. His Answer. It's too difficult. I marvel at the simplicity of that answer.

Hindu fanatics weren't in power since '47. They are now. Hence, no longer a bogey.

This govt isn't fanatic. Last five years have given me ample confidence to say that. What about the last NDA govt back in '99 ? Weren't the hindu fanatics in power then too. So yes, the same bogey comes up each time.

It's actually quite the opposite. Nehru & Gandhi's narrative was for a secular country for all religions and people. It was Pakistan and the separatists trying to paint India as a Hindu country and trying to counter Nehru's narrative. Modi is simply the realization of India as a Hindu country and hence that propaganda of the past is no longer propaganda but an actual reality.

That is what the Paks want the world to believe. With the great record on minorities they have. Imran's latest is the world is appeasing Hitler again.

If they can get non-hindus to beleive all of that and oppose hindus that would be an even bigger win than whatever they've accomplished to date. If you want to break India this is a good way of going about it. Thing is its taken seventy years with meagre returns on that score and i predict the same will continue. Not buying it.

No one has said that and that has never been the case. Hating on the weak minorities is just part of the Hindu right's ideology which creates a bogeyman for the majority's insecurities to feed off of. The Nazis did the same with their Jewish minorities and we know how many Hindu right nuts have publically shown admiration for the nazis in the past.

Heck, even Haaretz once did an article noting the same:
https://www.haaretz.com/whdcMobileSi...rise-1.5628532

There is a tendency in south asia for majorities to behave as if they are the persecuted. Let's see how far it goes. To date i have not seen anything major. Just tendencies. Tendencies can tend towards some point but take an eternity to reach there. As there will always be counter vailing forces.

lol... an openly Hindu government is your definition of India's move towards "secularism". This is why this "secular" government of yours has building a Hindu Ram temple as part of its election manifesto.

What is the problem with it ? I heard advocacy for two other sites as well. Varanasi & Mathura. What is the big deal ? they are religous places for hindus.

This you can say is the govt deviating from a secular approach and favouring one religious community. You can then use that as a basis to make more arguments that benefit just one community. Hence openly Hindu govt : )

Their next agenda item is universal civil code. You have a problem with this ? Mans getting rid of the exceptions that various communities have. Indian Sharia or muslim personal law, Hindu Undivided family, etc etc. One law for all Indians regardless of community. Is this pro-hindu as well ?

See, part i'm interested in is at what point does their agenda become anti-non hindu ?

UP is the norm of this Hindu government, not an "exception". Those lynchings are not just in UP but all across the Hindi cow belt.

Exactly, cow belt with all its problems. Not the case in the south, north, west or east. Any pol that tries to pass off cow belt problems in the rest of the country isn't going to get much traction. People will ask why isn't he talking about local issues instead.

Oh yea, totally.. brush it under the rug.. no biggie.. just a small name change, right? Nothing to do with ideology or the Hindu government trying to scrub the Islamic past of the country.

Mangalore is known by at least four different names depending on language and dialect. Yet only the Kannada version is mentioned as its the state language. You think people who've grown up knowing it by other names are going to over night change their minds ? no, they won't. Maybe future generations will.

What applies to islamic part is just as relevant to British past. Within reason.

Thats obvious that you dont have a problem. Was that even my point?

And what is your problem if they want to build a Ram temple ? what has been reduced to a land dispute has turned again into some communal agitation just like it began. Time to move on.

What democracy?

Maybe i should say expedient politics instead. Tactical.

Why cant they give the Hindus another plot, build them a temple and "move on"? Oh right, it's a Hindu country, a Hindu government, by the Hindus for the Hindus.. Now, the arguments will come how holy the land is for the Hindus but the Muslims should just bugger off. It's more than a 400 year old mosque, I'd consider that historic enough. Its just too bad that it was demolished by Hindu fanatics and now those same fanatics are in power and will be busy scrubbing that place clean.. "Move on" you say..

Apparently the site has religious value as mentioned by the Archeological survey of India. They found evidence of a hindu temple underneath.

That only makes a difference in liberal countries with moral value systems like in the West, not Middle eastern or South Asian countries where the majority rules by tyranny over their minorities.

I mean look at you, an English speaking urbanite yet a full fledged apologetic for these Hindu nutjobs. Shows the stark difference in values between the West and the East.

I follow media that gives me a better understanding of what this govt of the day is doing and what it is about in an as objective manner as possible. Whether i like or don't like said govt is irrelevant. If it means getting the party line then so be it. As a result i've become familiar with hindu issues. This does not make me an apologist but explaining what I've understood they are doing. I find this part gets twisted quite well and what comes out is very different than the intent.

But that is a far better approach than starting off what the opposition says without first getting a background of what the protagonists intend. Default position of those who oppose or hate this govt.

Are you familiar with the Sabarimala, that was a commie hit job on the hindus. What did this govt do ? did they intervene like Rajiv with Shah Bano. No, they went with the court and that was it. Republic with laws in action. Had they done a Rajiv what you said about hindu govt becomes stronger. That the executive so empowered is wiling to intervene on matters that it was not constituted to do.

So now, we're going to teach the Nepalis what it means to be "left". Lol.. common. We both know what got BJP's goat was the day the Nepalis decided to scrap being called a "Hindu" country from their constitution.

This was not my understanding. Curious estranged relationship we have with the Nepalis, since the 60s. What should have been a mutually benefical one was completely messed up for decades. Bhutan is a good example of how things should have progressed but alas.

I note the similarity which both Rajiv & Modi had to deal with them. neither Congress or the BJP can handle them and i'm not blaming either leader, i'm blaming the bloody Nepalis for their bone headed-ness. The Nepalis say on both occasions we blockaded them. But the term blockade is military in origin and at no time was the Indian military used for such a purpose. Such semantics is lost on the Nepalis who insist we wanted to show them who was boss. True.

So now they want to kiss up to China, well, they are free to interact with whomsoever they chose but the moment they endanger our security we will be fighting the Chinese, in Nepal to the last Nepali. This got me called a hindu extremist. The British model of a two tier security system still applies. it's one tier now but Nepal, Sikkim & Bhutan form the inner tier. Two out of the three are settled. One is up in the air and for now we're letting them play as China is just too far away to help them should they need it. The tyranny of geography is in our favour. For this I got called a colonialist.

Yea, well it's easy to not care about the over dosage of Hindutva when you're born a Hindu and dont have to worry about family members being lynched by Hindu fanatics.

Communally sensitive areas have a context to begin with and will flare up regardless of who is in power. The catalysts can be trivial. Law & order is a state subject. Govts have an interest in stability. We've dealt with these problems since independence and is an ongoing issue.

Coastal Karnataka tends to have flare up from time to time. Whether BJP or Congress in charge makes no difference to frequency of communal incidents. The reason is that region has no dominant majority community so its a free for all. Some people refer to the region as an RSS lab. They've been at it for the last twenty years. Pushing getting pushed back and so on.

I'm sure we both see the same things, it's just our ideology differs quite a bit from one another. You are also part of the ruling majority so I'm sure that skews your perspective quite a bit.

Only ideology i have is Indian. Whatever the founding fathers came up with. Nehru's idea of India and not some hindu nutjobs wet dream. Community affiliations are irrelevant to me. Back in 2014 i was wondering whether we would be condemned to be a one party only country. Japan is like that. Isn't it important for Indian politics to have a viable alternative. We found one and i'm struck that the GOP is now being referred to as just as lost as the BJP were in their ten years in the wilderness. We recycle narratives. I was not even sure Modi would win this time, and whether there would be another Vajpayee moment. Just see what he went through. PM for 13 days, toppled. Then for a couple of years, toppled again. Finally he gets his term. Then loses the next election.

What is the BJP's or any other party's ideology these days ? way i see it is just about holding on to power. Everything else is a distance second.

Keep in mind i come from the south and whatever the BJP pushes up north has limited traction here. If you want to talk about regional divide this is it. The BJP's hold over my state, the only state in the south they have come to power in is tenuous at best. See how they have to backtrack on their core principles to allow their candidate as CM.

Cut off age for CM the BJP said was 75. Yeddy is well past 76 now.
CM must not come from the dominant community. Yeddy comes from the largest community, the Lingayats
BJP has a stance against corruption. Yeddy has been caught for corruption.

So quite a few contradictions there already if only to remain in power : )

I judge based on how a purported ideology treats its weaker sections of society as practiced in the world (which BJP drums up as their ideology). On paper, even Islam is the religion of peace.

This trend is being called ethno centric nationalism or civilisationalism. This is a more generic way of referring to the phenomenon across the world and gives points of reference to compare countries with. States as defined by the treaty of westphalia are being ordered around civlisational attributes instead of the traditional nation state values.

You can see gradual changes to the status quo. Is it necessarily bad ? debatable. Is it just a trend ? don't know.

So now you have heard about the planned Hindu settlements in Kashmir where before you hadn't.. go figure.

Just talk. How likely and when is an open question. Referring it as Hindu settlements implies its muslim land. Sure you want to phrase it that way given the history ?

It's Indian land and the laws of India now apply across the length & breadth of the country.

Punjabis ended Punjab militancy because there was a big landowning upper class with too much to loose from a drawn out conflict. The militants got choked off of all support. In Kashmir that is not going to happen as even the upper class is being humiliated and getting their rights snatched from them. The separatists in Kashmir will get plenty of support.

We will see. Veteran watchers of the region say a reaction there does not come the day after, or a week or month after. It comes a year to a year and a half later.

The status quo has changed. What will they do. Challenge it in court. So until that plays out there won't be anything untoward i suppose. When they lose the case in the SC then we will get to know for real.

So, this is your reason for supporting a communal Hindu party? Revenge against the Muslims..

Don't you think whatever agreements in place stand null & void after that point.

1947 Partition..

Why should we preserve a relic of this wrong and outdated thinking. Was partition up for vote. Did it go through Parliament. No it was the Brits deciding they wanted a military outpost that resulted in it. They then engineered a war to ensure Pakistan ensured with a portion of land that allowed access to China. Very far sighted and strategic on their part.

Islamists disgust me as much as Hindu fanatics. You all register with me loud and clear.

If it rights a historic wrong i won't be against. That it took this long is the only question.

How is that in any way a reply to what I wrote? Kashmiri politicians are still under gag. Ladhaki politician or Hindu politicians from Jammu rejoicing is suppose to make me puff up my chest? I'm sure it does yours.. but I don't have any axes to grind against Muslims..

This isn't a communal agitation. Why are you phrasing it that way ?

Why would the BSP come out in support. BSP, Maya's party is pretty far from being a BJP ally and have a muslim constituency to cater to. Same for parties like BJD, YSR & AIADMK hardly pro BJP. You could say they saw the mood and realised they never contest elections in J&K and went with it.

Indian muslims and Kashmiri muslims see each other as separate with different political causes. You never get Indian muslims going to Kashmir to fight a jihad the way Paks go over. Because this is not a muslim problem, in India.

[Double Edge]

China calls UT status for Ladakh ‘unacceptable’, triggers India’s sharp response | HT | Aug 06 2019

Hu Shisheng, a leading Chinese expert on India, said one reason behind New Delhi’s decision to divide Kashmir into two union territories was to separate two major disputes – one with Pakistan and another with China.

The director of the Institute of South and Southeast Asian and Oceania Studies at the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations said the move was aimed at separating “the two most ticklish disputes in the world from each other” and “to try to settle the Kashmir dispute unilaterally”.

I don't know if this is true but the implication is tantalising : )

For a moment, forget the Shaksgam area ceded by the Paks.

Now that we are dealing with two entities instead of one. We get the flexibility to deal with each UT separately.

So the Ladakh area could be settled with China whilst leaving the status quo frozen on the Paks side.

It means a future border resolution with China will not be held hostage by India's relations with Pakistan and vice versa.

[Double Edge]

Historical perspective

Nehru running to the UN and getting a cease fire declared when General Thimaya was in the process of regaining PO J&K and would have had it if only he had a few days more (!) I've heard this story many times from a family member who served in that war.

This is the reason why doctors are discouraged from treating family members especially close family as they would not be able to remain objective.

Nehru being a Kashmiri pandit on the issue of kashmir was in the same boat. And the rest is history as they say....