Kashmir unrest 2016

[Deltacamelately]

*The quality of the debate above itself is evidence, why I am so addicted to this place :)*

Continue Gentlemen.

[Oracle]

Now, the actual story from across the border.
Locals burn Pakistan flag, protest escalates in PoK over rigged polls
Pakistan muzzles pro-India voices in Pak-Occupied Kashmir with brutal force, human rights violations

[Oracle]

And, Pakistan's Geo News 'blocked' for equating Kashmir with Balochistan
Resentment mounts against growing Chinese presence in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, Gilgit-Baltistan

[667medic]

The reason is real, keep India bleeding and hinder it's progress. China is the shadow no one talks about or doesn't want to talk about. Not long ago Pak was an American ally. And Indian positions were blocked by stupid maneuvering by the State Department and the US administration.

I am repeating this again, China doesn't consider India as a military or even economic threat but undeservedly looks at India with disdain. This is the unfortunate truth, since it appears that China still has a lingering fear of Japan and of course fears Russia and USA.

I am not saying that this attitude of China is not without repercussions, since her neighbour, who she considers inferior is still nuclear armed. I assume the Chinese strategists realize this fact and Pakistan comes into the picture as a useful condom/toilet paper.

If it were not for the Americans, the Indians would have finished the job in 1971. I take it that it is reasonable to accept part of the blame.

So what stopped India from finishing Pakistan. USA almost threatened to nuke China during the Korean war. Mao being Mao simply said that the Chinese will breed and make up for any population loss. The tough truth is that power comes only from the barrel of a gun and not by leaning on a stick, fasting and having a poor dressing sense...

[Oracle]

I am repeating this again, China doesn't consider India as a military or even economic threat but undeservedly looks at India with disdain. This is the unfortunate truth, since it appears that China still has a lingering fear of Japan and of course fears Russia and USA.

I know, Sir. The disdain that China has is due to India hoisting the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government in exile. A Nehru folly not to interfere in Tibet and trusting the Chinese without watching his back. There was a reason why the British left Tibet as a buffer. So, you see it was not the only Nehruvian decision ordering the Army to create forward posts along the McMahon line, why China has this so called disdain, which led to the 1962 war. China sees every other successful/unsuccessful country with contempt. Heck it has disdain for the Philippines. Between Nehru and Mao, Mao was a thinker, while Nehru was a dumbass seeking glory in bed with different woman. He was sleeping when the Chinese almost finished building roads on Aksai Chin.

Coming to the other part of your argument, ofcourse India is not at par with the US or Russia, so the threat level is low as far as the Chinese is concerned. But, I wonder why Sikkim doesn't belong to China. I also wonder what's stopping the PLA to take Arunachal Pradesh. China would, if it could. This is not 1962. After that we had 1967 and 1987. So the best way to keep India in internal chaos is to support Pakistan on the North-Western front, and the various militant groups in the North-East. FYI, Paresh Barua right now is in the Jungle resort between Burma's border and Yunan province of China. A stable India is not in China's interests, for then it gives India enough bandwidth to work for the economy and build the military.

I am not saying that this attitude of China is not without repercussions, since her neighbour, who she considers inferior is still nuclear armed. I assume the Chinese strategists realize this fact and Pakistan comes into the picture as a useful condom/toilet paper.

Yep. That's about it. But for how long? China isn't pleased with Pakistan (ETIM). Sooner or later this would bite China in the ass. It has already started.

So what stopped India from finishing Pakistan.

The Americans. That was 1971. But we still managed to achieve our main objective. And I would not go as far as using the word finishing, maybe defang.

USA almost threatened to nuke China during the Korean war. Mao being Mao simply said that the Chinese will breed and make up for any population loss. The tough truth is that power comes only from the barrel of a gun and not by leaning on a stick, fasting and having a poor dressing sense...

I agree, but Sir, you also have to consider the political discourse we've had in the last 60+ years. A government that looted public money and resources, and made sure India never stood on its feet. Compare this with the BJP at power right now. Tanks are being positioned at the China border, Howitzers are on order from the USA, 1 more regiment of Brahmos block III have been ordered for the China border. Alongwith this, the economy is getting a facelift. We ain't got unlimited money, so we have to make sure we spend money for the right things. As I said, it takes time. Things are getting interesting. But economic up-gradation is a must and should be the #1 priority.

N.B.: China also knows that it is limitless to what India can achieve if our leaders set their mind to it, and that the world would happily engage with a democratic India, than a communist China. Work in progress.

[Deltacamelately]

So what stopped India from finishing Pakistan.

Both the US and USSR. It was a tacit agreement between the US and USSR and between USSR and India that the Indian Forces will retreat back to their barracks, once the eastern objectives are met, against the perceived Pakistani and US assessments, that the war objectives were actually aimed at dismantling the Western Pakistan Military and possibly, dismembering Western Pakistan itself. Indira blinked.

[Oracle]

Both the US and USSR. It was a tacit agreement between the US and USSR and between USSR and India that the Indian Forces will retreat back to their barracks, once the eastern objectives are met, against the perceived Pakistani and US assessments, that the war objectives were actually aimed at dismantling the Western Pakistan Military and possibly, dismembering Western Pakistan itself. Indira blinked.

Thank you Colonel. I forgot this point. When I think of this now, I smile. Pakistan has been way too lucky.

[Officer of Engineers]

Is the PLA going to march on Dehli? Or nuke Dehli? No? Job being well done, then.

[Oracle]

Is the PLA going to march on Dehli? Or nuke Dehli? No? Job being well done, then.

And the Colonel in this usual style. Lol.

Btw, they want more visas, they say we gain.

India may gain $80 billion per year on relaxing visa regime: Chinese media

The proposal for a visa waiver programme for nationals from other BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa) nations has faced obstacles in India, particularly because of "security concerns" with China. If India moves to tighten visas for Chinese, it would mean a loss of billions of dollars in income every year," an article in the Global Times said.

[Firestorm]

Both the US and USSR. It was a tacit agreement between the US and USSR and between USSR and India that the Indian Forces will retreat back to their barracks, once the eastern objectives are met, against the perceived Pakistani and US assessments, that the war objectives were actually aimed at dismantling the Western Pakistan Military and possibly, dismembering Western Pakistan itself. Indira blinked.

Col, this is confusing. If there was a tacit understanding between India and the USSR that there was to be no dismembering of West Pakistan, then how did Indira blink? That was the plan from the beginning right? The military deployments and maneuvers surely suggest that. The IA was playing a holding role in the west with some offensives to break Pakistani plans. Is there any evidence to suggest Indira actually wanted to invade and dismember West pakistan? Even if she had, Maneckshaw would have told her it was impossible to do. This would be way before the threat of American intervention came into picture. The plans had been made months in advance. There was no last minute change due to the American threat.

Secondly, if there was a tacit understanding between the US and USSR as well, why did Nixon send the Enterprise into the BoB? Things were going acc. to plan right?India winning in the east and merely holding in the west.

Nobody stopped India from "finishing" Pakistan. That was never on the cards. And neither was it militarily possible. The only people who thought so were the Americans. And after the war Nixon and Kissinger drank their own kool-aid and believed they stopped India from destroying West Pakistan and made it seem like that had been their intent all along. It wasn't. They had wanted both East and West pakistan to survive. Damn the genocide.

[Oracle]

The understanding, I believe came after The USS Enterprise found out USSR subs waiting for them in the BoB. And by that time, East Pakistan was almost lost. There was only West Pakistan to be saved, then. Maybe plans were on the table, but had to be abandoned at the last minute.

[Officer of Engineers]

The understanding, I believe came after The USS Enterprise found out USSR subs waiting for them in the BoB. And by that time, East Pakistan was almost lost. There was only West Pakistan to be saved, then. Maybe plans were on the table, but had to be abandoned at the last minute.

Oh for Pete sakes. 1970s. Does anyone actually think that the USS ENTERPRISE battle group could not sink all the Soviet subs in theatre?

[Oracle]

Oh for Pete sakes. 1970s. Does anyone actually think that the USS ENTERPRISE battle group could not sink all the Soviet subs in theatre?

Actually that's not what I meant. My line of thought is probably US thought fighting the Soviets over Pak is not a good idea and Bangladesh was already lost, and they both talked with each other and with India, and which is probably why after Bangladesh was liberated, Indian forces moved back to India.

Or, US was late into the party, Bangladesh was already liberated, and US told/threatened the Soviets about how West Pakistan is not to be touched.

In all these, what is the significance of the Soviets subs in the BoB? They were there, right? So what objective did the Soviets achieve?

Am I correct when I assume that no country, not even US would take nuke hits for another country, not even a NATO ally.

[Oracle]

There should be no glorification of terrorists as martyrs: Rajnath Singh
Pakistan censors Rajnath Singh's speech in Islamabad

[Deltacamelately]

Col, this is confusing. If there was a tacit understanding between India and the USSR that there was to be no dismembering of West Pakistan, then how did Indira blink? That was the plan from the beginning right? The military deployments and maneuvers surely suggest that. The IA was playing a holding role in the west with some offensives to break Pakistani plans. Is there any evidence to suggest Indira actually wanted to invade and dismember West pakistan? Even if she had, Maneckshaw would have told her it was impossible to do. This would be way before the threat of American intervention came into picture. The plans had been made months in advance. There was no last minute change due to the American threat.

Secondly, if there was a tacit understanding between the US and USSR as well, why did Nixon send the Enterprise into the BoB? Things were going acc. to plan right?India winning in the east and merely holding in the west.

Nobody stopped India from "finishing" Pakistan. That was never on the cards. And neither was it militarily possible. The only people who thought so were the Americans. And after the war Nixon and Kissinger drank their own kool-aid and believed they stopped India from destroying West Pakistan and made it seem like that had been their intent all along. It wasn't. They had wanted both East and West pakistan to survive. Damn the genocide.

Firestorm,

There was no agreement as such. The situation was completely fluid and the understandings, counter-understandings, threats and coercions were all evolving just as the battlefield evolved. The US administration's assessment was blindly based upon the Pakistani rhetoric that India wanted to cut through the Thar and dismember Pakistan into two, which was the quintessential silver line of the Strike Corps war plan as widely believed. The fact is, there were no such plans. All that the Indian Forces wanted to achieve was, destroying the PA's war making capabilities. It wasn't the US, rather the Soviets who were breathing over Indira's shoulder, cautioning restraint and telling her to send the Indian Forces back into their barracks once the eastern objectives were met.

The USS Enterprise's entry into the BoB sent shock waves through the very core of the Indian Military establishment and as the good Colonel will recall from another discussion with Capt Lemontree, hasty plans were made and there was an imminent strike package to be delivered at Diego Garcia. The IA was very much willing to completely destroy the PA's war making capabilities and there was enough intelligence to suggest that the PA had less than 3-4 days fuel and ammo left for continuing the war efforts.

So Yes, if Indira hadn't blinked, the monkey with the nukes wouldn't be sitting on India's western border today.