keran sector??

[Tronic]

India Pakistan perpetual squabbles are always at a brainless level by default.
They will always hate us and we will always hate them. Its completely pointless.
All of you are already at rock bottom

I don't hate "them". My closest friends are Pakistanis.

[cirrrocco]

Even a dumbest terrorist wont or Let suppose he was sent by Pak army would carry his CNIC with himself, or weapons market with Pakistan Name.

The letter part was very funny.

I hope they Know if ISI by Any mean was really to send a militant force across border into India.they are not this much dumb to give them their CNIC,letters and most important Such low quality rifle which over here people dont even use for personal conflict let alone fighting a well trained indian army

Farhan, if what you say above is true, then all the NLI "mujahideen" during Kargil are all dumb and should be disbanded.
I am sure when pervez mushi went across the border, he carried his ID as well or are you saying he was dumb if he carried his ID when he went across.

[bolo121]

I don't hate "them". My closest friends are Pakistanis.

How multicultural of you.
You are currently at a University in Canada right? I also got along fine with Pakistani fellow students back in the day.
But add the topics we are discussing to any conversations and very quickly all that aman gets strained.

[Tronic]

How multicultural of you.
You are currently at a University in Canada right? I also got along fine with Pakistani fellow students back in the day.

My Pakistani friends are not my fellow students. One has graduated (from a different university) and is working in the industry as an engineer, while others are in Med school in the US. My ex, who was also Pakistani, was also not a fellow student, but someone I met through a common friend.

But add the topics we are discussing to any conversations and very quickly all that aman gets strained.

Peace is strained even when I discuss politics with fellow Indians. Heck, just here at WAB, how many Indians do I manage to rile up every time I give my opinions on India's dirty politics?

That said, our political views, whatever little we discuss of them among our friend circle, mostly align. Where they don't, agree to disagree.

Discussing politics is usually not what I take into my everyday life. Not everybody is interested, so better to keep it here on WAB among the interested parties. I did invite one Pakistani friend onto WAB a few years back. He was quite indifferent to the Indo-Pak arguments here and left after a post or two.

[anil]

Again with the india-pakistan nonsense?

What I'd personally like is a complete disconnection of cultural, lingual and economic relations between indians and pakistanis. Even hindi movies and TV serials are a problem because they attract pakistanis on the indian side. Just one look at the youtube comments on a hindi song makes me vomit. You don't see that crap on songs like yere yere or apsara aali or nakka mukka because non-indians would not understand these languages.

I so hope that the south indian entertainment industry takes over entire india. If bollywood can change their lingua franca to tamil or telugu, half of all india-pakistan problems would be over.

ps: btw I just realised that many indian members on this board are from the minority community(non-hindus). Am I right?

[lemontree]

Deleated

[Firestorm]

Peace is strained even when I discuss politics with fellow Indians. Heck, just here at WAB, how many Indians do I manage to rile up every time I give my opinions on India's dirty politics?

Disagreeing about dirty political leaders and parties is one thing. Our "disagreements" with Pakistan and its people, are way more serious and have life threatening consequences. Indian expats "getting along" with Pakistani ones means absolutely nothing. Kashmir and the LoC aren't going to get any safer because Indians and Pakistanis in the US and Canada "get along". When two people meet face to face they always try to be civil and polite unless they are a-holes. They will try to be PC and not say exactly what's on their mind in the interests of maintaining propriety and decorum. There are no such inhibitions in online world. People can speak their mind. And the results are there to see.

[Tronic]

Disagreeing about dirty political leaders and parties is one thing. Our "disagreements" with Pakistan and its people, are way more serious and have life threatening consequences. Indian expats "getting along" with Pakistani ones means absolutely nothing. Kashmir and the LoC aren't going to get any safer because Indians and Pakistanis in the US and Canada "get along".

Except for the fact that there are countless number of Pakistanis living in India and making a living from Bollywood, cricket anchoring, or the music industry. Ask anil.

I think holding personal grudges against an entire people is beyond ridiculous. Ask AM and he'll tell you all about those traitorous "liberal extremist pro-India" Pakistanis. Those feelings are replicated by our own AMs on this side of the border.

When two people meet face to face they always try to be civil and polite unless they are a-holes. They will try to be PC and not say exactly what's on their mind in the interests of maintaining propriety and decorum. There are no such inhibitions in online world. People can speak their mind. And the results are there to see.

You also have to understand that most people are not so politically inclined as you, and do not really care about the political happenings around them.

Secondly, I don't understand why one has to take the politics personally. As much as I disagree with AM or farhan over their views, I'd still treat them to a drink (or something more Halal), if I ever was to cross paths with them in the real world. I've got nothing personal against them at all.

[Firestorm]

Except for the fact that there are countless number of Pakistanis living in India and making a living from Bollywood, cricket anchoring, or the music industry. Ask anil.

Proving my point? Those Pakistanis in India have had no effect on the issues between India and Pakistan. And yeah, I hope they leave after their Visa expires or apply for residency/citizenship if that is even allowed.

You also have to understand that most people are not so politically inclined as you, and do not really care about the political happenings around them.

Well if they were, I wouldn't have to visit online forums discuss politics now would I?

I think holding personal grudges against an entire people is beyond ridiculous. Ask AM and he'll tell you all about those traitorous "liberal extremist pro-India" Pakistanis. Those feelings are replicated by our own AMs on this side of the border.

Secondly, I don't understand why one has to take the politics personally. As much as I disagree with AM or farhan over their views, I'd still treat them to a drink (or something more Halal), if I ever was to cross paths with them in the real world. I've got nothing personal against them at all.

Yup, and Indian and Pakistani soldiers may share drinks as well if they happen to meet socially, and then shoot at each other if they meet on the battlefield. That is nothing personal either. What's the point?

All I'm saying was, in simple terms, me disagreeing with you about Indian politics or even our response to Pakistan, is completely different than me arguing with AM. I'm pretty much accusing his country of trying to kill me, my family and my countrymen and trying to cover it up, if you get down to the basics.

[Tronic]

Proving my point? Those Pakistanis in India have had no effect on the issues between India and Pakistan. And yeah, I hope they leave after their Visa expires or apply for residency/citizenship if that is even allowed.

You think the Pakistanis you interact with here have an influence over their country's foreign policy? I'm completely lost as to what you're trying to say.

Yup, and Indian and Pakistani soldiers may share drinks as well if they happen to meet socially, and then shoot at each other if they meet on the battlefield. That is nothing personal either. What's the point?

Where's the parallel between you and soldiers on a battlefield?

All I'm saying was, in simple terms, me disagreeing with you about Indian politics or even our response to Pakistan, is completely different than me arguing with AM. I'm pretty much accusing his country of trying to kill me, my family and my countrymen and trying to cover it up, if you get down to the basics.

I don't know.. I've banged my head over the issues pertaining to the Punjab insurgency and other sensitive topics where the safety of me, my family and my countrymen was also in question, if you get down to the basics... ;)


And do note; my statements were in response to an initial assertion my a member that Indian-Pakistani squabbles should be "brainless by default" and the "fun" should be allowed to continue. So if you're picking out a statement of mines to reply to, please do keep in mind the context.

[Agnostic Muslim]

As much as I disagree with AM or farhan over their views, I'd still treat them to a drink (or something more Halal), if I ever was to cross paths with them in the real world.

White Russian with Grey Goose please :D - and I absolutely agree with the part about being able to 'set political/geo-political differences aside' and still get along. If there was ever a 'WAB get-together', I'd attend (if possible) despite the fact that I have had many heated arguments with many of the members on this board.

The one part of your post that I disagree with is your suggestion that I label certain Pakistanis 'liberal extremists' for being 'pro-India' (and by that I assume you mean to suggest 'pro-peace with India'). My problem with such Pakistanis is not that they support peace with India, but their rather nasty and (at times) irrational criticism of the military establishment. That is starting to change however, as the Army continues to (overtly at least) refrain from interfering in politics and one democratically elected government has transitioned to another. For example, I am actually beginning to enjoy reading Kamran Shafi's articles now, because they have not been as 'Pakistan Army obsessed' since the transition, choosing to now focus equally on the political leadership for not pursuing the correct policies when it comes to dealing with terrorism and extremism.

[Firestorm]

Tronic, I think we are talking past each other. I'll drop it. We are seriously OT anyway.

[Tronic]

White Russian with Grey Goose please :D - and I absolutely agree with the part about being able to 'set political/geo-political differences aside' and still get along. If there was ever a 'WAB get-together', I'd attend (if possible) despite the fact that I have had many heated arguments with many of the members on this board.

Heh, seems like the one thing we can agree on is our vodka! ;) :tankie:

The one part of your post that I disagree with is your suggestion that I label certain Pakistanis 'liberal extremists' for being 'pro-India' (and by that I assume you mean to suggest 'pro-peace with India'). My problem with such Pakistanis is not that they support peace with India, but their rather nasty and (at times) irrational criticism of the military establishment. That is starting to change however, as the Army continues to (overtly at least) refrain from interfering in politics and one democratically elected government has transitioned to another. For example, I am actually beginning to enjoy reading Kamran Shafi's articles now, because they have not been as 'Pakistan Army obsessed' since the transition, choosing to now focus equally on the political leadership for not pursuing the correct policies when it comes to dealing with terrorism and extremism.

Criticizing the military establishment shouldn't make one a "liberal extremist". In an open society, an establishment's policies should be open to criticism and scrutiny. Rather than setting limits to the level a government or an institution can be criticized before someone gets branded an "extremist", there should be an open dialogue. A dialogue which Pakistanis do support in India, but not within their own country. Many of India's leftist intellectuals and academia who are harshly critical of Indian policies are brandished and quoted for examples, by Pakistanis, of Indian misdoings. However, when it comes to the section of Pakistani intellectuals who are critical of the Pakistani establishment, long dominated by the Pakistani army, they are quick to be labelled as liberal extremists, or RAW/CIA agents. Pakistani civil institutions are still in their infancy, and the Pak army is still the grand dady of the Pakistani establishment. You expect perceptions of the Pak army to change overnight because a civilian government has lasted in power for merely half a decade. Reality is, it will take decades of un-interrupted civilian rule before the semblance of accountability transfers over to the civilian rulers from the Pakistani army.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Criticizing the military establishment shouldn't make one a "liberal extremist".

Balanced and rational criticism is absolutely justified - my issue is with authors that would go after the Army for 'excesses in Balochistan' (for example) while completely ignoring the actions of terrorist/separatist groups operating in Balochistan, and the role of the provincial and federal political class in exacerbating the problems of the province. The approach of these 'liberal extremists' is the mirror image of the 'conservative extremists' such as Hamid Mir. People like Hamid Mir go after the Army for 'killing our own countrymen and Muslim Pashtun brothers' (when criticizing the military operations against the Taliban for example), and for the most part completely ignore the actions of the Taliban (and the political class).

Should the Army be criticized for overthrowing governments and acting without authorization from an elected government? Absolutely.

Should it be criticized for 'human rights violations' that have occurred in its campaigns against terrorism in FATA and Balochistan? Absolutely, but that criticism needs to be tempered by an acknowledgment of the fact that the Army is a blunt instrument that will cause collateral damage and that the best approach here is not to expect the Army to become a 'police force' (trying to turn a hammer into a scalpel) but to develop civilian institutions so that they can take over the role of the Army. In the case of people I like to call 'liberal/conservative extremists', I see a lot of hand wringing over the tactics used by the Army, and almost no recognition of the fact that the Army is not the proper tool to be using in the first place.

[antimony]

Our "disagreements" with Pakistan and its people, are way more serious and have life threatening consequences. Indian expats "getting along" with Pakistani ones means absolutely nothing.

Disagree, it shows there is no lasting animosity between the two groups, outside of the localized south asian conflicts, and in fact a lot of commonalities

Kashmir and the LoC aren't going to get any safer because Indians and Pakistanis in the US and Canada "get along". When two people meet face to face they always try to be civil and polite unless they are a-holes. They will try to be PC and not say exactly what's on their mind in the interests of maintaining propriety and decorum. There are no such inhibitions in online world. People can speak their mind. And the results are there to see.

Propriety and decorum need to work for countries too. My knee jerk reaction is to agree with you that we should absolutely cease any contact, but I have moved away from that. If you think about it, there are tremendous advantages to the two countries working together, from trading to central Asian gas to equitable water sharing arrangements. In fact, if you think about it, it is in the interest of Pakistan to start discussions ASAP. India right now holds the cards - Kashmir, Sir Creek, Water sharing, Siachen. It is in India's interests to hold the status quo, in Pakistan's interest to have a dialogue and change the status quo by offering something, sch as trading rights. There is a thought in Pakistan's thinking circles (which I think is completely loony) that the recent LOC and other events may be false flag operations, to prevent India from having a softer stance towards Pakistan.

In other words, India should be open to talk, and be open to hearing if Pakistan is willing to offer anything.