Game Changer 2 : India makes headway with ELF site construction

[Officer of Engineers]

You are the top dog here, but that doesnt mean you have to be a complete asshole about it. I have given you respect and spoken to you cordially. Wether I say completely stupid stuff or intelligent farts, You have no business talking to anyone like that, especially to a person talking to you with respect. Officer and Gentlemen, and all that.

I have absolutely no tolerance for stupidity and for someone refusing to learn from the evidence. I am a combat engineer by trade. Stupidity kills. Those who rose in rank in my trade have absolutely zero tolerance for stupidity. Being an Officer means that I will make you learn one way or the other or I get rid of you. I have absolutely no place for someone stupid enough not to learn. If you're not smart enough to outhink the guy who made the booby trap, you are going to set off the booby trap and that will piss off everybody around you.

Being a Gentlemen does not mean that I don't slap the stupidity out of you.

India, China and Russia intends to be independent entities of worth other than a British or French, who are tied to the US hip.

Of all the horse puckey idiotic dumb statements.

You and everyone should be asking, what model is India going to take?

It is where India is headed, 10 years down the line, that is exactly what you are going to see. Indian Sub or Chinese sub in the greater Indian Ocean and Pacific. India doesnt need to go to South China Sea to launch after the K-4 and greater variants come online.

What we see as days goes by, is that Indian Nuclear Doctrine is a evolving one, and the limitations that it imposes on itself, is because of its lack of capability and expertise, but NOT WILL. Everyone used to think it was the other way around. Fact of the matter, Indian strategist seems to be quiet prudent and 'chanakiyan' about the whole thing. A pleasent surprise.As the capability, expertise and technology increases, Indian nuclear doctrine will change.

Hey, stupid. If the InN is going the way you're suggesting, your KILOs would be off the Chinese coast by now.

[Blademaster]

OOE, then judging by the tone of post, I take it that you think the entire IN is pretty much stupid for going the ELF way, eh? There are some things that we are not just privy to. I will leave it at that.

[Officer of Engineers]

No, I find the mention of ELF as a nuclear game changer to be completely 100% idiotic. There's a hell of a lot of other things that needs to be done first such as finding your launch points with nothing more than a compass and a sextant. I like Tronic's explanation better that this is a lab but even hardened bunkers is stretching it.

Added: If there is anywhere I would look for a change of doctrine. I start with the NCA. You can afford to lose all the other sig sites but the NCA is the one place you cannot afford to lose. If the NCA is not equipped with ELF (and it won't because it's damned not worth it, AIR FORCE 1 don't have ELF), then you can be sure it's not reliant on it.

[Defcon5]

I have absolutely no tolerance for stupidity and for someone refusing to learn from the evidence. I am a combat engineer by trade. Stupidity kills. Those who rose in rank in my trade have absolutely zero tolerance for stupidity. Being an Officer means that I will make you learn one way or the other or I get rid of you. I have absolutely no place for someone stupid enough not to learn. If you're not smart enough to outhink the guy who made the booby trap, you are going to set off the booby trap and that will piss off everybody around you.

Colonel,

I know who you are much more than you know who I am. Your reputation does precede you, both the good and bad part of it. I will leave it that, there was nothing in stupid in that post, other than the fact it challenges your pre concieved and concrete notions on how India is going to play the game.

Being a Gentlemen does not mean that I don't slap the stupidity out of you.

Its a point of view

Of all the horse puckey idiotic dumb statements

Like, I said not really. The next decade or two will prove me right. I find it hard to believe that a country is constructing 4 Nuke Boomers at the same time, testing all sorts of nukes missiles, installing strategic communication tech; and you think they all mean nothing and doesnt add up to anything?

Hey, stupid. If the InN is going the way you're suggesting, your KILOs would be off the Chinese coast by now.

Quite sad of you to equate that to this. Indians are going about their rise with a strategy ( I use to think Indians dont do that, at all unlike the chinese), and they are not going to mess it up with the way, chinese did it with their peaceful rise propaganda. Indians are putting in places technology and capability that shows vision and commitment. It is unfortunate that you cant see it.

India isnt going to rattle in setups or cages, unless and until it has the weight to push it through. It is not going to fall into the trap like the chinese did, which resulted in the USA (Eye of Mordor) focussing on a East Asian strategy.

[Tronic]

I will leave it that, there was nothing in stupid in that post, other than the fact it challenges your pre concieved and concrete notions on how India is going to play the game.


Its a point of view

Dude, "pre-conceived and concrete notions" cut both ways, so lets keep it as your point of view and not give any more threads the title, "Game Changer". It misleads the entire discussion over the event. Let's stick to 'what is', and not 'what you think it is'.

Like, I said not really. The next decade or two will prove me right. I find it hard to believe that a country is constructing 4 Nuke Boomers at the same time, testing all sorts of nukes missiles, installing strategic communication tech; and you think they all mean nothing and doesnt add up to anything?

Quite sad of you to equate that to this. Indians are going about their rise with a strategy ( I use to think Indians dont do that, at all unlike the chinese), and they are not going to mess it up with the way, chinese did it with their peaceful rise propaganda. Indians are putting in places technology and capability that shows vision and commitment. It is unfortunate that you cant see it.

India isnt going to rattle in setups or cages, unless and until it has the weight to push it through. It is not going to fall into the trap like the chinese did, which resulted in the USA (Eye of Mordor) focussing on a East Asian strategy.

So let's talk when they really do add up to something. When that technology and capability is in place. Apologies for being crude, but this isn't the best time to beat your chest.

[Officer of Engineers]

I know who you are much more than you know who I am. Your reputation does precede you, both the good and bad part of it. I will leave it that, there was nothing in stupid in that post, other than the fact it challenges your pre concieved and concrete notions on how India is going to play the game.

My pre-conceived notions were put forth by General KJ Sundarji. Unfortunately, his brilliance is lost on most of his countrymen.

Its a point of view

It's a fanboy view. I know nuclear warfighting and what you're doing ain't it.

Like, I said not really. The next decade or two will prove me right. I find it hard to believe that a country is constructing 4 Nuke Boomers at the same time, testing all sorts of nukes missiles, installing strategic communication tech; and you think they all mean nothing and doesnt add up to anything?

It adds up to Gen Sundarji's strategy that deterrence is not warfighting. Otherwise you enter into an arms race that you've already lost. You really must be stupid to tout a 2ndary system, not even a primary system - like I said, AIRFORCE 1 does not have ELF nor does it require ELF, a secondary system that no one uses and no one relies on to tout a strategic development. Just because you have a police radio does not mean you're a policemen.

Quite sad of you to equate that to this. Indians are going about their rise with a strategy ( I use to think Indians dont do that, at all unlike the chinese), and they are not going to mess it up with the way, chinese did it with their peaceful rise propaganda. Indians are putting in places technology and capability that shows vision and commitment. It is unfortunate that you cant see it.

Of all the dumb idiotic, stupid, ninkompoot statements. If you're going to be in the Big Boys' Game, you will have to PLAY in the Big Boys' Game and that means getting close to your target, evading enemy ASW, and finding your launch points. The Big Boys do it by round the world tours. What? You expect to have a boomer, hand it to a Sub Captain who knows squat all about evading enemy ASW or finding the right launch points?

Even Sundarji would not leave this to chance. Fight as you train. Train as you fight. The ability to deliver is part of your deterrence. Otherwise, if the enemy knows you cannot deliver, you have no deterrence. Why do you think nobody is cowering under the North Korean nuclear threat? Because they're a little boy pretending to be a big boy.

India isnt going to rattle in setups or cages, unless and until it has the weight to push it through. It is not going to fall into the trap like the chinese did, which resulted in the USA (Eye of Mordor) focussing on a East Asian strategy.

Are you serious? Quoting Toiken? New Zealand told the Americans to take a hike. India can't?

[Defcon5]

Dude, "pre-conceived and concrete notions" cut both ways, so lets keep it as your point of view and not give any more threads the title, "Game Changer". It misleads the entire discussion over the event. Let's stick to 'what is', and not 'what you think it is'.

Dont dude me, My handle is quite clearly written as is yours.

Its the future, everyone over here is all about what they 'think' it is. Nobody knows for sure.

So let's talk when they really do add up to something. When that technology and capability is in place. Apologies for being crude, but this isn't the best time to beat your chest.

Then we may have to delete all the threads which talk about future developments and geo political stances. Its quite clear for everybody, that India is putting some serious resources and commitment towards sea based deterrent. A country which hasnt even built one single diesel electric sub, is building 4 nuke SSBN simultaneously.

[Defcon5]

My pre-conceived notions were put forth by General KJ Sundarji. Unfortunately, his brilliance is lost on most of his countrymen.

It's a fanboy view. I know nuclear warfighting and what you're doing ain't it.

I am just saying, that it seems India is putting up the building blocks to move away from General Sundarji's concept, which was necessitated by the realities of his time. Current Indian strategic planners I assume think in the near future there is a possibility for India to push more, which requires a much more robust and aggressive stance

It adds up to Gen Sundarji's strategy that deterrence is not warfighting. Otherwise you enter into an arms race that you've already lost. You really must be stupid to tout a 2ndary system, not even a primary system - like I said, AIRFORCE 1 does not have ELF nor does it require ELF, a secondary system that no one uses and no one relies on to tout a strategic development. Just because you have a police radio does not mean you're a policemen.

ELF is hardly a police radio. Just like once you told me about how the way to find missile sites was to follow Dead end/going nowhere roads and railway tracks. The question is about whether India is planning to move ahead with mated nukes in Submarines in the future. All the recent developments point towards that

Of all the dumb idiotic, stupid, ninkompoot statements. If you're going to be in the Big Boys' Game, you will have to PLAY in the Big Boys' Game and that means getting close to your target, evading enemy ASW, and finding your launch points. The Big Boys do it by round the world tours. What? You expect to have a boomer, hand it to a Sub Captain who knows squat all about evading enemy ASW or finding the right launch points?

I am not saying India is in the big boys game or even playing it. I am putting forth a view, India intends to play it and play it hard in the near future. The building blocks have been put in place. Colonel, building 4 SSBN's simulatenously should tell you something doesnt it.

Even Sundarji would not leave this to chance. Fight as you train. Train as you fight. The ability to deliver is part of your deterrence. Otherwise, if the enemy knows you cannot deliver, you have no deterrence. Why do you think nobody is cowering under the North Korean nuclear threat? Because they're a little boy pretending to be a big boy.

True, But India doesnt have the toys to train with. It will when it gets the toys and confidence; it decides to play. I am arguing that Indian stand on deterrence is forced upon by its capability problems and technological backwardness, NOT WILL. India strategy will change as its building blocks of today come online tomorrow. Every Indian member over here to argue about the incapability of the Indian Government, but for the Indian strategic planners, it is not only about decision making will, rather India today simply isnt capable and it has to plan to change its face and its stance, as it accumulates these capabilities.

Are you serious? Quoting Toiken? New Zealand told the Americans to take a hike. India can't?

India already has. It is going to be silent non moving idiot of an entity which can be trampled upon, until it can. The Elephant has a different idea of a rise, than the dragon, it doesnt want to attract attention like the dragon did before it actually starting flying. Guess, Chanakiyan trumping Confucius here.

lol, If China had a strategy of peaceful rise, which failed completely. It would be prudent to think, India does too. Maybe nobody cares because India is so far back in the game, or India enjoys a certain status or India is real good at its strategy.

[Tennetc]

I am just saying, that it seems India is putting up the building blocks to move away from General Sundarji's concept, which was necessitated by the realities of his time. Current Indian strategic planners I assume think in the near future there is a possibility for India to push more, which requires a much more robust and aggressive stance

General Sundarji's concept, from what I understand is to make sure india does not get nuked,to do this, india must not give a reason for others to nuke her. And indias nukes must be able to survive a first strike from indias main enemy pakistan and to some extend china (for some reason,I may be wrong, india seem to not consider US, russia, uk etc) and be able to do a counter strike. For the above reason , India's nukes and missle are not put in the same place. This is good because for one, india's enemy will have one less reason to nuke her and second of all, if someone wanted to kill indias nuke, they will have to target two places, the nukes and the missiles.This is a very good plan: its cheap and in line with indias technology level.

As of now china and paskistan can't 100% make sure it can kill all indias nuke in one strike.

So if I am to understand you correctly about India is putting up the building blocks to move away from General Sundarji's concept,are you trying to say india is now moving away from trying not to get nuked as its main goal and is now moving on to trying be able to win a nuke war?If yes, I must tell you that is a very bad plan and not doable with indias current technology level.

If China had a strategy of peaceful rise, which failed completely

China never had such a strategy

[Officer of Engineers]

So if I am to understand you correctly about India is putting up the building blocks to move away from General Sundarji's concept,are you trying to say india is now moving away from trying not to get nuked as its main goal and is now moving on to trying be able to win a nuke war?If yes, I must tell you that is a very bad plan and not doable with indias current technology level.

It doesn't. He's a fanboy trying to believe that India will become a superpower on par with the US with 10,000 nukes.

Everything seen thus far fits with Sundarji. 4 boomers means only one is at sea at given time (1 at sea, one coming off a deployment and going in for a refit, one getting ready for a deployment, one at drydock for mid life upgrade). If they follow the Chinese example (and nothing I've seen thus far would indicate otherwise), the nukes would not be loaded until a time of crisis.

India's navy does not have enough ships to have a ready flotilla to protect the boomer. She will have to call in her ships to provide that protection and that takes time.

The fanboy does not understand Sundarji and he wants to be a superpower.

What he fails to realize that free soldiers have a duty to protect our ways of life. Spending money on weapons instead of hospitals hurt that way of life. Hell, taking money to buy guns instead of buying shoes hurt that way of life. As soldiers, we have a duty to spend no more than necessary, no less than necessary, but certainly no more than necessary. Sundarji/Nie in this respect did more to protect their people's ways of life than our 60,000+ nukes.

But he has a hard on for nuclear dildos.

China never had such a strategy

The strategy is deterrence and at times, this meant killing the chicken in front of the monkeys ... though it was not a wise strategy to hurt the cow in front of the bear (1979 1st Sino-Vietnam War).

[Tennetc]

The strategy is deterrence and at times, this meant killing the chicken in front of the monkeys ... though it was not a wise strategy to hurt the cow in front of the bear (1979 1st Sino-Vietnam War).

About the 1979 Sino-Vietnam War, from my point of view, will had did little to stop the SU from invading china if the SU really did want to invade China. It did however prove that south china could take care of vietnam and did not need north china's help, thus making the SU's efforts harder, but still doable.The main deterrence, I think was still china's decision to accept friendship with the US. So following the concept of deterrence is not war fighting, the act of allying with US may have been the main reason china avoided war with the SU.

Also, Mao died in 1976, and the PLA was a very powerful force to decide who will be the boss of the CCP, deng only allowed units from south china to fight vietnam( they were not as good as unit from north china), Deng may have wanted them to do a bad job, thus giving him a reason to take care of some generels not loyal to him, maybe this was a major reason for the war, what do you think?

[Defcon5]

Also, Mao died in 1976, and the PLA was a very powerful force to decide who will be the boss of the CCP, deng only allowed units from south china to fight vietnam( they were not as good as unit from north china), Deng may have wanted them to do a bad job, thus giving him a reason to take care of some generels not loyal to him, maybe this was a major reason for the war, what do you think?

That is a brilliant deduction, So China lost its war with Vietnam on purpose.

[Officer of Engineers]

About the 1979 Sino-Vietnam War, from my point of view, will had did little to stop the SU from invading china if the SU really did want to invade China. It did however prove that south china could take care of vietnam and did not need north china's help, thus making the SU's efforts harder, but still doable.The main deterrence, I think was still china's decision to accept friendship with the US. So following the concept of deterrence is not war fighting, the act of allying with US may have been the main reason china avoided war with the SU.

The 1979 War was to break the Soviet military encirclement of China.

Also, Mao died in 1976, and the PLA was a very powerful force to decide who will be the boss of the CCP, deng only allowed units from south china to fight vietnam( they were not as good as unit from north china), Deng may have wanted them to do a bad job, thus giving him a reason to take care of some generels not loyal to him, maybe this was a major reason for the war, what do you think?

That the units down south was not up to par was a given but no one knew just how far they were behind. The main problem with the PLA's performance was a lack of aggression. Those units who were aggressive suffered far fewer casualties than those who waited for special weapons support.

But you're right, there was nothing the 38th and 39th Group Armies could have done against the Soviet 58th Army.

That is a brilliant deduction, So China lost its war with Vietnam on purpose.

3 Vietnamese Provincial Capitals destroyed. All Chinese Operational Objectives achieved. How do you define Vietnamese victory?

[Defcon5]

General Sundarji's concept, from what I understand is to make sure india does not get nuked,to do this, india must not give a reason for others to nuke her. And indias nukes must be able to survive a first strike from indias main enemy pakistan and to some extend china (for some reason,I may be wrong, india seem to not consider US, russia, uk etc) and be able to do a counter strike. For the above reason , India's nukes and missle are not put in the same place. This is good because for one, india's enemy will have one less reason to nuke her and second of all, if someone wanted to kill indias nuke, they will have to target two places, the nukes and the missiles.This is a very good plan: its cheap and in line with indias technology level.

Yes, You also assume the General's and India's realities are set in stone, I see the change in it by the ways India's fast expanding nuclear aresnal

As of now china and paskistan can't 100% make sure it can kill all indias nuke in one strike.

Not only that India's has capability to inflict unacceptable loss to China as well as cessation of the state of Pakistan

So if I am to understand you correctly about India is putting up the building blocks to move away from General Sundarji's concept,are you trying to say india is now moving away from trying not to get nuked as its main goal and is now moving on to trying be able to win a nuke war?If yes, I must tell you that is a very bad plan and not doable with indias current technology level.

India I believe has come to the conculusion that a Nuclear War with Pakistan and to some extend China is a possibility, and its deterrence is not working in case of Pakistan, that much they know. India in trying to avoid a nuclear war is loosing much more than it expected and the unpredictability of Pakistan and China is not helping

Pakistan's rampant use of Nuclear blackmail has enabled to force a Mumbai, Parliament Attack and Kargil. India's deterrence strategy isnt working. It has also not stopped China from aggressively getting into the Indian sphere of influence, picking away Indian protectorates ; so to speak. There is going to be a time, India can no longer forgive Pakistan nor can it turn a blind eye to China. India's current Nuclear strategy, will not abode well for its future in the long term.

The Colonel is right, that India has not shown anything by which we may be convinced of my assumption. Like he says, Indian Army doesnt store enough water, nor has it even training at serious, nor has the civilian population and emergency services prepared for such an enventuality. But I believe, that is the next step. India's nuclear aresenal expanding at a very large rate, India is readying and testing a wide variety of nuclear delivery mechanisms, India's ABM system, India's interest in ELF and India's elevated interest in Nuclear SSBN program is serious enough for me to think, there is much more to it, a country which hasnt even build a nuke SSN or a diesel electric, has already finished 1 Nuke SSBN, the other 4 are in various stages of construction.

China never had such a strategy

China mismanaged its rise, and produced a still born.

[Defcon5]

3 Vietnamese Provincial Capitals destroyed. All Chinese Operational Objectives achieved. How do you define Vietnamese victory?

The 1979 War was to break the Soviet military encirclement of China.

This did not happen.