India and Pakistan in Kashmir border skirmish

[lemontree]

double post

[lemontree]

....... shall we return the discussion to the accounts about the Indian Army engaging in 'barbaric and medieval tactics such as beheadings, mutilations and butchering of POW's ...

What proof do you have....that they were "mutilated"?

[kuku]

There is no personal attack on you, its more like a reply on the entire Pakistani Situation.
You have already high-jacked the discussion,
Freedom fighters in Kashmir and Kargil, Oppressed Indian Muslim turned terrorists in Mumbai/Delhi/Hyderabad/Pune......, Indian nuclear proliferation, etc. etc. i am afraid of what the Pakistani establishment will use Atlantique Incident as justification for.

There is no point in such discussions, you will drag it back to some convenient point in human history.

[kuku]

Overall the Indian establishment is behaving very immature on every filed, they respond to every situation after it happens and in a very unprofessional manner, which is reflective of the Indian work culture, everyone has the priority of saving his/her own ass, instead of having carefully planned responses to situations involving Pakistan (Terrorist Infiltration, terrorist attacks, Border provocations, diplomatic wars, the peace process).
Every level of Indian leadership is trying to somehow save there own ass,instead of doing their jobs and forming a strategy to respond to such events, using this strategy to respond to events as they happen (in this real time world).

[Deltacamelately]

i can't help but imagine a big hairy guy with tattoos all over him sitting on a chopper yelling at his neighbor "i saw you around my bike last day, now its broken and you're gonna pay, and btw keep the fukin cops and judges outta this. Its just you and me, bitch."

rofl

[Agnostic Muslim]

- Come back and discuss when you understand the difference between words "mutilation" and "beheading in battle".
- Allegations by journalists of "excesses" are absurd. It was a battlefield not a police cane charge on civilains.

I understand the difference quite well, what you appear incapable of understanding is the simple English used to describe beheadings, mutilation and butchering of POW's during Kargil, by three different Indian journalists reporting on the conflict - here they are again for your benefit:

1. Barkha Dutt:

"I had to look three times to make sure I was seeing right. Balanced on one knee, in a tiny alley behind the army’s administrative offices, I was peering through a hole in a corrugated tin sheet. At first glance, all I could see were some leaves. I looked harder and amidst all the green, there was a hint of black—it looked like a moustache. “Look again,” said the army colonel, in a tone that betrayed suppressed excitement. This time, I finally saw.

It was a head, the disembodied face of a slain soldier nailed onto a tree. “The boys got it as a gift for the brigade,” said the colonel, softly, but proudly.

The above account describes beheading and mutilation of a corpse (Indian soldiers taking the head as a 'trophy' and nailing it to a tree).

2. Harinder Bajewa:

“The experiences of 18 Garhwal show another side of the war … one of them took out his knife and slit the head of a Pakistani soldier in one stroke. The head was sent to Brigade Headquarters at Drass and pinned to a tree trunk … the enemy head, a grisly trophy, became an exhibition piece. Major General Puri came down from Mughalpura to see it. Other officers dropped in to Brigade Headquarters to take a look. So did some journalists … it was there pinned on the tree for anyone who could bear to look at it.”

The account above suggests post-mortem beheading, along with mutilation of a corpse (Indian soldiers taking the head of a Pakistani soldier as a trophy and nailing it to a tree)

3. Sankarshan Thakur:

"New Delhi made quite a show of mutilation of some of its captured soldiers by Pakistanis but much the same was happening on this side. Troops of the Naga and Jat regiments told us quite plainly they had killed a few intruders they had captured alive in the heights above Drass. “It was rage, just rage,” one Naga soldier said, “They killed many of our mates, we were angry. When we got them, we butchered them.”

This account quotes Indian soldiers as claiming they killed POW's, a clear violation of the Geneva convention.

The three accounts by three different journalists corroborate each other - there is nothing absurd about these allegations and while you could have argued against one such account, trying to dismiss all three consistent accounts as fabrications is not going to fly.

Ya ya....now you start calling names.

I'm sorry, but do you disagree with calling soldiers butchering POW's 'cowards'? Do you disagree with the argument that the massacre of Pakistani POW's was a violation of the Geneva Conventions?
The Naga and Jat Regiment's actions are no different from the TTP (Tehrik-e-Taliban), and therefore they deserve nothing better than the language used to describe the butchering of prisoners by the TTP.

The Nagas gave the same treatment that your troops give us.

I have yet to see one credible account supporting your claim that Pakistani troops did something similar, even Saurabh Kalia's case is contested:

"The Times of India’s Sidddharth Varadarajan writes that Indian Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh’s allegation—made at the height of the Kargil conflict—that the bodies of six dead Indian soldiers were "severely mutilated" by Pakistanis, was never substantiated. "Virtually every newspaper carried the gory details released by an Indian wire service without waiting for independent confirmation. Such confirmation never arrived... During the war itself, at least two newspapers received information that the allegation was highly exaggerated—probably only one of the bodies bore signs of mutilation. But the journalists who received the information, chose to remain silent."

Varadarajan has also revealed that a newspaper and a magazine received reports from its correspondents at the war-front that Indian soldiers had mutilated the dead bodies of Pakistani soldiers in retaliation. But after heated editorial debates, it was decided to kill these stories—at least until the fighting was over."

Lies out of control

I'll give an account of Dec 1971, of the treatment metted out to one soldier from my battalion, captured by troops of 31 Baluch in Bangladesh. Our patrols found the missing soldier, with a large raddish up his rectum and his penis chopped off and stuffed in his mouth, and a bullet in his head. This is a fav way the Pak army mutilates captured Indian soldiers.

BTW, we later clobbered 31 Baluch at Jamalpur, and their regemental flag hangs upside down in our officers mess. I'm sure our khalsa's would have returned the pathan treatment to some of the captured of 31 Baluch.

Sure, and there are quite a few similar accounts against Indian soldiers provided by Pakistani soldiers, but I have deliberately chosen to keep those out of this discussion because any such accounts would be dismissed as 'anecdotal, one-sided and unsubstantiated'. Hence my focus on the three accounts (so far) from three Indian journalists reporting on the Kargil conflict first hand.

You cannot cry mercy when you give none. Just a couple of weeks ago an Indian prisoner arrested and sentenced for 5 years for "spying" in Pakistan, was beaten up and killed by jail guards 2 days before his sentence got over. This is your hate for us in a peaceful environment of your own area.

Please don't distort my comments - no one is 'crying mercy' here. It is the Indian Army that has gone whining and crying 'Mama' to the Indian media through its selective leaks on this particular incident, not the Pakistani Army.

My goal in posting these accounts describing beheadings, mutilations and the killing of POW's by Indian soldiers is to counter the smear campaign against the Pakistani Army and the comments denigrating the Pakistani Army earlier in this thread. Until I brought up these accounts you and some others were quite happy perpetuating the myth that the Indian Army's hands were completely clean on this count and suggesting that such 'barbaric and unprofessional tactics were the sole domain of the Pakistani Army'.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Overall the Indian establishment is behaving very immature on every filed, they respond to every situation after it happens and in a very unprofessional manner, which is reflective of the Indian work culture, everyone has the priority of saving his/her own ass, instead of having carefully planned responses to situations involving Pakistan (Terrorist Infiltration, terrorist attacks, Border provocations, diplomatic wars, the peace process).
Every level of Indian leadership is trying to somehow save there own ass,instead of doing their jobs and forming a strategy to respond to such events, using this strategy to respond to events as they happen (in this real time world).

Actually, most independent analysts covering the recent escalation on the LoC have commended the approach taken by the Pakistani Government and Military - it certainly isn't the Pakistani side that has been engaging in war-mongering and inflammatory rhetoric with empty threats:

... New Delhi would have taken note that the Pakistani GHQ in Rawalpindi did not react to a statement by the Indian army chief General Bikram Singh, who warned of an "aggressive" response to future ceasefire violations.

In fact, Pakistani assurances followed within 48 hours at the level of the Director-General of Military Operations that strict instructions have been issued to local units to observe the ceasefire on the LOC. Interestingly, Pakistani army chief General Ashfq Kayani never once spoke through the entire week. The signal seems to have been that nothing extraordinary had happened on the LOC.

Of course, uninformed Indian opinion might conclude that Pakistan "blinked". But there is much more to what happened than meets the eye. The confidential exchanges at the top echelons of the Indian and Pakistani military leadership have always been meaningful, and both sides try to comprehend each other's compulsions (even whilst disagreeing).

Suffice to say, the recent fracas has been brought to end by the military leaders, at which point politicians and diplomats are taking over. However, it goes to the credit of politicians and diplomats that they also may have created a legacy by now in the current history of the India-Pakistan relationship.

The point is, neither side tried to "internationalize" the recent tensions. The two major influences on Pakistan - China and the United States - actually advised the efficacy of the bilateral track. The dialogue process remains open, too.

India's diplomatic voice consistently sounded conciliatory even while the political voice addressing the domestic audience spoke stridently. In sum, the dialogue process may have slowly, steadily begun kicking in despite the serious shortfalls in its substantive outcome so far.

Again, it wouldn't have escaped notice in New Delhi that there has been a near-complete absence of rhetoric or "war mongering" on the part of the Pakistani politicians and political parties. This is further confirmation that the political discourse within Pakistan has significantly transformed.

Asia Times Online :: India, Pakistan peer into the abyss

[kuku]

Actually, most independent analysts covering the recent escalation on the LoC have commended the approach taken by the Pakistani Government and Military - it certainly isn't the Pakistani side that has been engaging in war-mongering and inflammatory rhetoric with empty threats:


Asia Times Online :: India, Pakistan peer into the abyss

What is happening between our two nations, is not a popularity contest, opinions of independent analysts account to right about zero when it comes to where it counts. Opinions of foreign nations, their politicians and lobbyists matter to the same level.

Outright denial of the incident, and calling for third party investigations pushed things to the brink.
Not taking actions against active anti India terrorist groups based in Pakistan is pushing things to the brink.
Letting anti India terrorists openly advertise for funds to fight a jihad against India and carry out recruitment is pushing things to the brink.
Letting anti India terrorists acquire training on Pakistani soil and then crossing over to India is pushing things to the brink.

[Tronic]

The Naga and Jat Regiment's actions are no different from the TTP (Tehrik-e-Taliban)....

Although I did find your posts very enlightening; this I found amusing.

I'm sure you actually meant the Pak army, not the TTP. ;)

I have yet to see one credible account supporting your claim that Pakistani troops did something similar, even Saurabh Kalia's case is contested:


Lies out of control

That's a BS source AM. Captain Saurabh Kalia's case is well documented. Ask his family who received his mutilated body.

You invoke "credible" sources such as Barkha Dutt, Harinder Baweja, and Sankarshan Thakur to implicate the Indian army, but when those very same sources also implicate the Pakistani army for mutilating dead soldiers, you apparently "have yet to see one credible account" of the same? The blatant hypocrisy is shameful AM! You really don't shy away from being branded the PA's mouthpiece, do you?

Sure, and there are quite a few similar accounts against Indian soldiers provided by Pakistani soldiers, but I have deliberately chosen to keep those out of this discussion because any such accounts would be dismissed as 'anecdotal, one-sided and unsubstantiated'. Hence my focus on the three accounts (so far) from three Indian journalists reporting on the Kargil conflict first hand.

You mean 2 accounts. Harinder Baweja and Barkha Dutt are both talking about the alleged beheading in Drass sector during the Kargil war. That's two different journalists making the same claim. I have no reason to believe that they are lying. It probably did happen. What's shocking is the fact that a Colonel and even a Major General were privy to this fact.

That said, these accounts should silence the call for war on the Indian side, as now we know, the army does hit back in the same token.

My goal in posting these accounts describing beheadings, mutilations and the killing of POW's by Indian soldiers is to counter the smear campaign against the Pakistani Army and the comments denigrating the Pakistani Army earlier in this thread. Until I brought up these accounts you and some others were quite happy perpetuating the myth that the Indian Army's hands were completely clean on this count and suggesting that such 'barbaric and unprofessional tactics were the sole domain of the Pakistani Army'.

It ain't a smear campaign. At best, you have proven that the Indian army stoops down to the same dirty level as the Pak army. Doesn't make the PA look any better.

[Firestorm]

It ain't a smear campaign. At best, you have proven that the Indian army stoops down to the same dirty level as the Pak army. Doesn't make the PA look any better.

Even if you believe prevaricators like B Dutt, the IA seems to do that in response to the PA's actions. I guess it would be impossible to maintain troop morale if they are never allowed to hit back.

[Firestorm]

I say purge the valley with fire and sword, leave a desert and call it peace.
At least that would be an end to it

Sure. The Northeast is also problematic. Lets purge that as well. The naxal afflicted areas are also due for a "purging" I guess.

It would help to think for a minute before advocating genocide.

[Double Edge]

Found this op-ed by the good brigadier to be quite enlightening as to what exactly is going on.

Nothing but manouevering for the upcoming Pak elections.

Earlier we were treated to the China-Japan pre-election circus, this is the Indo-Pak installment :)

Kayani’s game plan | DH | Jan 25 2013

Kayani’s game plan
Brig Arun Bajpai, Jan 25, 2013:

Pak army’s new strategy: Of late Pakistan army has been looking for an excuse or an event that can facilitate escalation of violence along LoC.

Despite Pakistani denials, let us not be in any doubt that the recent ambushing and mutilation of two soldiers of Indian army in Mendhar Sector of Poonch in absolute foggy conditions on the morning of January 8 was a preplanned action by the 29 Baloch Regiment of the Pakistani SSG Group with an aim to escalate the violence along the 770 km long LoC in J&K and send India a message.

Of late Pakistan army has been looking for an excuse or an event that can facilitate escalation of violence along LoC. They found this in the recent visit of the Pakistani interior minister Rehman Malik to India. Under intense public pressure, India during this visit had raised the issue of torture and beheading of late Capt Saurabh Kalia in May 1999 by the same regiment of Pakistan.

Rehman Malik made light of this case amounting to mockery of India’s sentiments resulting in adverse public opinion. Realising that repeat of this incident at this stage will escalate India-Pakistan tensions many fold, Pakistani army planned this operation. Army chief Gen Bikram Singh is right in his recent statement that this was a premeditated action by Pakistan army.

The big question is, Pakistan which is a bankrupt country living on US doles and beset by internal strife and terror related attacks leading to an average of 3,000 people getting killed every year as also a very volatile western border with Afghanistan, why does it want to destabilise its comparatively quiet eastern border with India? This question has perplexed many analysts but knowing Pakistan army and ISI this is exactly how the Pakistani generals operate. They are working on a well planned strategy.

Just six months back, with Americans having killed 24 Pakistani soldiers on Durand Line and US-Pakistan relations at their worst nadir, Gen Kayani was all for peace with India. He made a specific call to India to settle Siachin dispute amicably after 135 Pakistani soldiers got killed in an avalanche there last year. It was with the blessings of the Pakistani army that Indo-Pak peace process once again started chugging along.

Things however have changed since then. Obama has been reelected as American president. He has more or less publicly acknowledged that the American Afghanistan policy has failed. Now he wants to withdraw post haste from Afghanistan by 2014 without leaving behind any residual troops. Towards this end Pakistan has been restored the $ 3 billion dollar American aid.

War material

The withdrawing American troops with their heavy war equipment have to pass through the Durand line and Pakistan. They will definitely be attacked by Taliban all along with the aim that they leave behind this war material and do not ever come back to Afghanistan again. Pakistan is a party to this plan.

However the 1.4 lakh Pakistani troops stationed on Durand Line at the American behest and being paid for by the Americans are required to stop this from happening. But then if the LoC gets activated on the eastern border of Pakistan with India, giving an excuse to Pakistan to withdraw bulk of its troops from its western border of Afghanistan to Indian border in national interest blaming India, two birds will be killed with one stone.

Gen Kayani, who is already on an unprecedented 3-year extension in Pakistan army’s history is retiring in September this year. Along with him three of the top corps commanders of Pakistan army out of its 11 corps commanders are also retiring. This will create a big void in Pakistan army’s hierarchy.

Kayani cannot get another extension now because the junior crops commanders are seething with rage for being denied promotion. However if a war like situation gets created in the Indian borders then it is a different matter and nobody will deny Kayani an extension.

Pakistan is facing the general elections in a few months from now. Pakistan army does not want the current PPP government in power to come back because twice this government tried to cut them to size. The other major player Nawaz Sharif and his party PQML (Nawaz) is suspect in the eyes of the army because it was Pakistani army which not only dethroned Nawaz Sharif in a coup but also exiled him from the country for seven years.

Pakistan army along with fundamentalist parties will like the new comer Imran Khan with his Tehriq-e-Insaf party to win. This will be a puppet regime for the army to play as they please. For this to happen Pakistan army must create a tense situation along Indian border to earn the good will of the people of Pakistan. Incidentally both PPP and Nawaz Sharif wanting peace with India is anathema to army.

It is good that the Indian government has not fallen to this Pakistani trap by over reacting to the border incident. It is also a sensible approach by the current UPA government in power that it has laid out clear policy for Indian army to settle scores with Pakistan army at the LoC by reacting to any provocation by them with a suitable offensive action in a graded professional manner while the government itself is offering carrots.

This will ensure that the Pakistan army will have to pay a heavy price on the border for any mischief and the morale of Indian army will remain high. At the same time the civilian government of Pakistan has been left with the option, should they pick courage, to confront their army.

[bolo121]

Sure. The Northeast is also problematic. Lets purge that as well. The naxal afflicted areas are also due for a "purging" I guess.

It would help to think for a minute before advocating genocide.

Actually I've been thinking a lot on it especially OOEs comment some time ago in another thread.
The only way to win against insurgencies is the Genghis method. Winning hearts and minds and changing the minds of the populance is extraordinarily difficult.
Success stories like the British in Malaya are the exception and not the rule.
In our case the religious nature of the conflict makes it even more impossible.
We seriously need to consider. Either do the evil thing and stay or do the only feasible thing and leave.
The current slow motion bleeding is not sustainable.

[lemontree]

I understand the difference quite well, what you appear incapable of understanding is the simple English used to describe beheadings, mutilation and butchering of POW's during Kargil, by three different Indian journalists reporting on the conflict - here they are again for your benefit:

1. Barkha Dutt:
2. Harinder Bajewa:
3. Sankarshan Thakur:

Good that you believe in reports of Indian Journalists....then you must also have believe in the torture and killing of Lt.Saurabh Kalia and his men in Kargil.
- The execution of the down pilot of the Mig-21 Sqn Ldr A Ahuja (he had a bullet in the head fired from close range).
- Being hand in glove with Al Qida and hidding Osama Bin Laden.

The account above suggests post-mortem beheading, along with mutilation of a corpse (Indian soldiers taking the head of a Pakistani soldier as a trophy and nailing it to a tree)

It only suggests beheading, not mutilation....You still have not proven mutilation my friend.

This account quotes Indian soldiers as claiming they killed POW's, a clear violation of the Geneva convention....

Where does it say mutilation. Shooting is also referred to as butchered by many.......what happened was probably something like this:-

The three accounts by three different journalists corroborate each other - there is nothing absurd about these allegations and while you could have argued against one such account, trying to dismiss all three consistent accounts as fabrications is not going to fly.

What is absurd is when a journalists use the word "excesses" in a battle account. Would shooting the enemy also be termed "excesses" by Barkha Dutt?

I have yet to see one credible account supporting your claim that Pakistani troops did something similar, even Saurabh Kalia's case is contested:

The same journalists you quoted above have reported on Lt Saurabh Kalia...You are showing selective amnesia now.

My goal in posting these accounts describing beheadings, mutilations and the killing of POW's by Indian soldiers is to counter the smear campaign against the Pakistani Army...

You have the liberty to defend your army, but you have an up hill battle. I have nothing againt a battlefield beheading..that happens in the heat of war, but your army loves to insult the dead. I do not know if you have ever served in your army....but here is an interesting account from one of your retired generals of the ISI, Lieutenant General (Retired) Shahid Aziz
'Kargil was a disaster, Musharraf tried to cover it up' - Rediff.com India News

[Agnostic Muslim]

What is happening between our two nations, is not a popularity contest, opinions of independent analysts account to right about zero when it comes to where it counts. Opinions of foreign nations, their politicians and lobbyists matter to the same level.

Correct, it is not a 'popularity contest' so just focus on the facts then which clearly show that the IA engaged in mutilations, beheadings and massacres of POW's.

Outright denial of the incident, and calling for third party investigations pushed things to the brink.

Why shouldn't Pakistan deny involvement in the incident if it was not involved? Why shouldn't Pakistan argue for involving a third party arbiter given the widely divergent positions and allegations being made by the two nations?

Not taking actions against active anti India terrorist groups based in Pakistan is pushing things to the brink.
Letting anti India terrorists openly advertise for funds to fight a jihad against India and carry out recruitment is pushing things to the brink.
Letting anti India terrorists acquire training on Pakistani soil and then crossing over to India is pushing things to the brink.

Not implementing UNSC resolutions on Kashmir is taking things to the brink.
Not allowing Kashmiris to exercise their right to self-determination is taking things to the brink.
Continuing a policy of propaganda in the Indian media to demonize and denigrate Pakistan is taking things to the brink.

Anything else?