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What if the US had fully backed the KMT in the late 1940s?

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  • #16
    A Banana Republic

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    • #17
      Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
      A Banana Republic
      KMT vs Macedonian phalanx?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by hboGYT View Post
        What if the KMT won the war on the back of massive US aid, but persisted the old policies, assuming the US does not intervene, would China have fared better or worse.\?
        The revolution would have been postponed a decade or so, until the next set of uprisings brought down the corrupt regime . . . just like it happened over and over again in dynastic China.
        Trust me?
        I'm an economist!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by DOR View Post
          The revolution would have been postponed a decade or so, until the next set of uprisings brought down the corrupt regime . . . just like it happened over and over again in dynastic China.
          Assuming any rebellion is brutally crushed with US aid, what kind of economic policy would the KMT pursue?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by gunnut
            Even Taiwan, the DPP is having some issues now because Tsai doesn't get along with Chen in the south, and Lai (the premiere?) is from the Chen clique.
            Not precisely. While Premier "William" Lai has the support of Chen's base, he's from the New Trend Faction, and his naming as the premier is supposed to smooth over his disagreements and conflicts with President Tsai.

            Originally posted by DOR
            By the time the KMT got to Taiwan, the survivors were die-hard Chiang allies...
            I don't know if that is accurate. At least according to the memoirs, the relationship btw CKS and the New Guangxi Clique generals were far from harmonious. That said, being stuck on the same island probably did wonders in bringing everybody into CKS's span of control, as they were no more regions for regionalism to develop. And the lion's share of warlord armies and resources were left behind.
            All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
            -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by hboGYT View Post
              KMT vs Macedonian phalanx?
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                Not precisely. While Premier "William" Lai has the support of Chen's base, he's from the New Trend Faction, and his naming as the premier is supposed to smooth over his disagreements and conflicts with President Tsai.



                I don't know if that is accurate. At least according to the memoirs, the relationship btw CKS and the New Guangxi Clique generals were far from harmonious. That said, being stuck on the same island probably did wonders in bringing everybody into CKS's span of control, as they were no more regions for regionalism to develop. And the lion's share of warlord armies and resources were left behind.
                Only one of the three main leaders of the New Guangxi Clique even made it to Taiwan.

                Li Zongren was side-lined by CKS in 1943, and after CKS took the stole the Nationalist Government’s money and ran off to Taiwan, Li retired to Guangxi. Stealing the coffiers (CKS wasn’t in office at the time, so it was straight-forward theft) was a contributing factor to the hyperinflation that added to the Nationalists’ untenable position in the late 1940s.

                Yan Xishan (not one of the clique; he remained in public office into the 1980s) convinced Li to “unretired,” and Li formed a government in Guangdong that was quickly over run by the CCP. Li then went to New York. CKS set up a new government in Chongqing, and then had to relocate to Taiwan. Li Zongren stayed in the US until 1965, then “defected” to China where he died in 1969.

                Bai Chongxi, Li’s long-time sidekick, was a Muslim and quite principled man. He may have been responsible for a declaration of a jihad against Japan in 1937, but I can’t pin down a source on that. Like Li, CKS essentially sidelined him whenever he (CKS) was strong enough to do so.

                In 1949, when it was clear that the CCP was winning, Bai refused to fight at the Huai River and demanded negotiations. His first condition was that CKS resign. While Lin Biao was sweeping through central and southern China, CKS sent Bai to Taiwan to investigate the 2-28 slaughter and perhaps to make sure there was somewhere to regroup. Bai did a competent job in Taiwan, but then fell out with CKS once again. In Taiwan, he was given an honorary advisor position and helped Chiang Ching-kuo reorganize the KMT in the early 1950s. He died in Taiwan in 1966.

                Huang Shaohong, the third musketeer, participated in the CCP-KMT peace talks in 1949, and when those failed, retreated to Hong Kong. He then joined the CPPCC, in effect changing sides. He killed himself during the Cultural Revolution.
                Trust me?
                I'm an economist!

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                • #23
                  What economic reform was Chiang attempting to implement before getting rekt?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by DOR View Post
                    Only one of the three main leaders of the New Guangxi Clique even made it to Taiwan.
                    Oi! I stand corrected. Bai's son later became one of the great modern novelists.
                    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by hboGYT View Post
                      What economic reform was Chiang attempting to implement before getting rekt?
                      None?
                      He wanted an end to hyperinflation, but wasn't willing to cut the government budget to slow the printing machines.
                      He wanted more US aid, but wasn't willing to be held accountable.
                      And, he wanted reliable government revenues but wasn't willing to stop stealing anything he could get his hands on.
                      Trust me?
                      I'm an economist!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by DOR View Post
                        None?
                        He wanted an end to hyperinflation, but wasn't willing to cut the government budget to slow the printing machines.
                        He wanted more US aid, but wasn't willing to be held accountable.
                        And, he wanted reliable government revenues but wasn't willing to stop stealing anything he could get his hands on.
                        I heard that he was trying some land reforms. Your take?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by hboGYT View Post
                          I heard that he was trying some land reforms. Your take?
                          It’s really, really hard to reform land ownership without taking it from those who have it and giving it to those who don’t. And, as the landed gentry and business were the main (noncriminal) supporters of the KMT, such a move would have been suicide. The Nationalists paid lip service to land reform in the early days, but after 1931 it was more about minimizing the fallout from the Japanese invasion than about land reform.
                          Trust me?
                          I'm an economist!

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by DOR View Post
                            It’s really, really hard to reform land ownership without taking it from those who have it and giving it to those who don’t. And, as the landed gentry and business were the main (noncriminal) supporters of the KMT, such a move would have been suicide. The Nationalists paid lip service to land reform in the early days, but after 1931 it was more about minimizing the fallout from the Japanese invasion than about land reform.
                            Who were some of the clean officials within KMT who wanted to reform?

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                            • #29
                              And, as the landed gentry and business were the main (noncriminal) supporters of the KMT, such a move would have been suicide.
                              think CKS could and should have leaned on them more. i mean, what were their options? japan or the commies, pretty much.
                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by hboGYT View Post
                                Who were some of the clean officials within KMT who wanted to reform?
                                “clean” KMT officials? I don’t know if there ever was such a thing.
                                Trust me?
                                I'm an economist!

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