Originally posted by zraver
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WWII what-ifs
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Originally posted by zraver View PostYup, had the corporal listened to his generals the Germans had a real shot at winning in 41. If the USSR loses Lenningrad and Moscow the whole strategic picture changes.
This same scenario played out in China when Chiang moved east (oops I mean west) and suckered the Japanese deeper into China. Japanese were better equipped but China had more men to throw at them. Japanese not only had to deal with the Nationalist army, they had to deal with occupying conquered land and the partisans.
The overall picture doesn't change much. Germans would punch themselves out and then the Red Army would attack from east of the Urals.Last edited by gunnut; 07 Apr 16,, 21:43."Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.
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The overall picture doesn't change much. Germans would punch themselves out and then the Red Army would attack from east of the Urals.
moreover Moscow was a huge logistics/industrial hub for the Russians. they were desperately trying to shift things out to their back up capital at Kuibyshev until the Siberian troops saved their bacon.
you're probably looking at the war being extended at LEAST an extra six months and probably anywhere from half a million to another million Soviet dead...and that's the optimistic scenario.There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
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Originally posted by astralis View Postbut also 30% of some very critical areas.
BTW, the importance of lend-lease went back to 1941, not just from 1943 (although that is when it significantly ramped up). for instance, 30-40% of USSR tank strength defending Moscow in Dec 1941 were british lend-lease tanks.
Overstated. At less than 300 tanks, it was the Soviet infanteer that won the day, not British MATILDA or Canadian VALENTINE.Chimo
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Originally posted by gunnut View PostIt might not look good for the Red Army but I'd figure Stalin would just move east and continue the fight from there. Meanwhile the Germans would get sucked deeper and deeper into Russia. They not only had to deal with the Red Army, they had to deal with more and more partisans and spend resources on occupation.
This same scenario played out in China when Chiang moved east (oops I mean west) and suckered the Japanese deeper into China. Japanese were better equipped but China had more men to throw at them. Japanese not only had to deal with the Nationalist army, they had to deal with occupying conquered land and the partisans.
The overall picture doesn't change much. Germans would punch themselves out and then the Red Army would attack from east of the Urals.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostOk, all this did was to shift Stalingrad to Moscow. If the Germans must take Moscow, then Moscow must be defended and they had more soldiers and an excellent General in Chuikov.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostThen you let your favourite Soviet General, Vatutin, numeric superiority against a weakened German LOC.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostBut Manstein isn't at Leningrad. He's at Moscow, along with the soldiers that stopped Vatutin in the first place.
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Not so fast
Battle of Kiev (1941) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
However, David Glantz argued that had Operation Typhoon been launched in September, it would have met greater resistance due to Soviet forces not having been weakened by their offensives east of Smolensk. The offensive would have also been launched with an extended right flank.[20] Glantz also claims that regardless of the final position of German Troops when winter came, they would have still faced a counteroffensive by the 10 reserve armies raised by the Soviets toward the end of the year. If Kiev had not been taken before the Battle of Moscow, the entire operation would have ended in utter disaster for the Germans.[20][21][22]Chimo
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Originally posted by astralis View Postbut also 30% of some very critical areas.
It did not even reached that until after Stalingrad. Reading the numbers, British and Canadian LL was less than 6 percent of the Soviet output at the time. Canada gave 1400+ VALENTINE to the USSR during the entire war. The Soviets lost that much and replaced that much in a month.Chimo
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