WWII what-ifs

[Officer of Engineers]

That is if the Japanese accept battle.

[Mihais]

They can' avoid it.The Allies can impose a battle on them.

[Officer of Engineers]

Don't see how if they just turn and run. Do recall the Battle of Midway. It wasn't the actual fight that was difficult. It was finding the carriers.

[Doktor]

Don't see how if they just turn and run. Do recall the Battle of Midway. It wasn't the actual fight that was difficult. It was finding the carriers.

IIRC, it was sheer luck to spot the IJN, meaning could've happened in a day or in months.

[Mihais]

North Atlantic is a cauldron compared to the Pacific.There is the GIUK,which are basically unsinkable CV's while the concentration of Allied ships is so great there is no way a surface combatant,let alone a whole fleet can escape undetected.

The Axis fleet may,of course,cause damage,but it'll be like Bismarck:a one time show.
The force ratio between the RN and the German navy in WW1 was much more in favor of the Germans,yet their surface fleet was contained easily

What I'll find interesting is :what if the Germans somehow manage to capture the entire French Navy in 1940?The combined German,French and Italian navies has to fight a RN divided between the Eastern Med,FE and the North Atlantic,while the Axis has the advantage of interior lines.

[zraver]

Don't see how if they just turn and run. Do recall the Battle of Midway. It wasn't the actual fight that was difficult. It was finding the carriers.

They can't, its a one way trip to get into the Bay of Biscay and under LUftwaffe air protection, they won't even have much fuel to maneuver. They may not have many escorts left due to the range. Pretty much just carriers, battleships, cruisers and a few big ocean going subs. The newest class of Japanese destroyer in 1941 only has a range of 5000 miles.

Assuming the RN slips the Far Eastern fleet through the Suez to take up station in the Med and ships the Med fleet to bottle up the Germans so the Home Fleet can give battle en mass.

British Home fleet- 5 battleships, 2 battle cruisers, 2 carriers, 6 heavy cruisers, 13 light cruisers, AA cruiser, 44 destroyers, 31 subs

US Atlantic Fleet at least 6 battleships and 3 carriers, 7 cruisers cruisers, 50 destroyers and 40 submarines

IJN- 10 battleships, 12 carriers, 18 heavy cruisers, 20 light cruisers, 126 destroyers, 68 subs

[Officer of Engineers]

Jason, why are you not adding in the Kreigsmarine? Most obvious point, SEA LION immediately became viable.

[zraver]

Jason, why are you not adding in the Kreigsmarine? Most obvious point, SEA LION immediately became viable.

I shifted the RN's Far East fleet into the Med to bottle up the Italians and shifted the RN's med fleet to Home waters to bottle up the Germans. The RN has half the transit distance of the IJN, there is no way for the two (IJN/KM) to Link up. Likewise the US Pacific Fleet based in Peal wont get there in time even with the Panama Canal since the US hasn't broken the naval code reliably yet.

On paper your match up favors the IJN, in everything but destroyers. But the trip will leave the IJN on Bingo fuel... the trip from the Kure naval yards to Brest France is 16750 miles going round the Horn of Africa and would take almost 70 days at 10 knots to conserve fuel. If the IJN wants to sail deeper into the roaring 40's and farther off the coast of Africa to reduce exposure to allied air craft the distance exceeds 20,000 miles and takes more than 3 months.

[Officer of Engineers]

It would be extremely unrealistic for the IJN to sail into battle after such a long voyage. Both men and machine need rest and repair. Plus, the KM would need time to evaluate the new assets and how best to exploit them. Not to mention the language barrier that must be overcame if the IJN is to fall under the KM's command.

[Doktor]

North Atlantic is a cauldron compared to the Pacific.There is the GIUK,which are basically unsinkable CV's while the concentration of Allied ships is so great there is no way a surface combatant,let alone a whole fleet can escape undetected.

The Axis fleet may,of course,cause damage,but it'll be like Bismarck:a one time show.
The force ratio between the RN and the German navy in WW1 was much more in favor of the Germans,yet their surface fleet was contained easily

What I'll find interesting is :what if the Germans somehow manage to capture the entire French Navy in 1940?The combined German,French and Italian navies has to fight a RN divided between the Eastern Med,FE and the North Atlantic,while the Axis has the advantage of interior lines.

Churchill was wandering the same :-)

[Bigfella]

I shifted the RN's Far East fleet into the Med to bottle up the Italians and shifted the RN's med fleet to Home waters to bottle up the Germans. The RN has half the transit distance of the IJN, there is no way for the two (IJN/KM) to Link up. Likewise the US Pacific Fleet based in Peal wont get there in time even with the Panama Canal since the US hasn't broken the naval code reliably yet.

On paper your match up favors the IJN, in everything but destroyers. But the trip will leave the IJN on Bingo fuel... the trip from the Kure naval yards to Brest France is 16750 miles going round the Horn of Africa and would take almost 70 days at 10 knots to conserve fuel. If the IJN wants to sail deeper into the roaring 40's and farther off the coast of Africa to reduce exposure to allied air craft the distance exceeds 20,000 miles and takes more than 3 months.

If I recall correctly the IJN had poor ASW capabilities. Without destroyers it will be practically non-existent. The RN has convenient ports from Sri Lanka all the way around Africa and on both sides of the Atlantic. Most on large land masses, some on islands. The US could operate out of those if it wished. Even if that huge fleet somehow managed to head south once it got past the DEI (Indonesia) and avoid all contact until it hits the Atlantic, the distance between Africa & Sth America is short enough to fly over. I believe even fighters were ferried over it. Of course, it would be shadowed much of the way and probably lose ships to subs. When it his the mid-Atlantic The IJN would be swarmed by subs & planes before the RN & USN even engaged.

The KM would either be bottled up or largely destroyed. By this point in the war Sea Lion was off the table, so there would be no qualms about committing the Home Fleet to destroying it. The whole operation might cost the Allies some ships, but it would end with at least one Axis fleet littering the bottom of the Atlantic.

I think your attack on the US West Coast is more likely.

[Officer of Engineers]

Outside of South Africa, most nations in South America and Africa were neutrals. How are you going to use them as a base of operations?

[Bigfella]

Outside of South Africa, most nations in South America and Africa were neutrals. How are you going to use them as a base of operations?

Sir,

If you have a look at a map of Africa circa 1943-44 (the relevant period here) you'll see it is mostly Allied. Britain had colonies on every coast and Sth Africa into the deal. In the case of the Atlantic it had everything Sth of Angola, Nigeria, Gold Coast (Ghana) and Sierra Leone. It also controlled a series of islands in the mid-Atlantic which had bases in WW2. By the end of 1942 the French colonies in the region were all Free French (some had been since 1940). Their facilities were available for Allied use from that point and some were utilized.

Additionally, Portugal maintained a formal alliance with Britain throughout WW2, though it was formally neutral. British and American forces were using the Azores by early 1943 and in August 1943 Portugal leased out facilities to Britain and allowed the US to build more. Both Britain & the US used these facilities for the rest of the war and they were a major stopover for aircraft being ferried from the US to the UK. In 1942 the US also signed a defence agreement with Liberia. Roberts Airfield in Monrovia was both a base for ASW aircraft & a major stop in aircraft ferrying routes.

Brazil formally declared war on Germany & Italy in mid-1942 & had been allowing US forces to base themselves there even before that. The Brazilian Navy & Army took part in WW2 & a string of Brazilian airfields weer either used for ASW aircraft or for ferrying aircraft. Britain had colonies all along the Atlantic/Caribbean boundary starting in Guyana & running all the way up to Bermuda & the Virgin Islands.

That completely covers the mid-Atlantic and most of the Sth Atlantic. No large Naval formation was going to pass through that area without being spotted early. The Allies will have had months to plan their strategy and pre-position such forces as were required. The IJN fleet will be harassed and depleted before it gets anywhere near the Nth Atlantic. The RN & USN will be able to choose the time & place they take battle.

[Doktor]

Silly question, what was in those bases?

[Bigfella]

Silly question, what was in those bases?

Need to be more specific Doc. Which ones?