WWII what-ifs

[Mihais]

It is on rationale.There were debates and there were arguments back then.It is not hindsight.For reasons that have litle to do with military logic,mistakes were made.And it was admitted at the time the decisions weren't based on military logic.
The Soviets made mistakes as well.

[Officer of Engineers]

It is on rationale.There were debates and there were arguments back then.It is not hindsight.For reasons that have litle to do with military logic,mistakes were made.And it was admitted at the time the decisions weren't based on military logic.
The Soviets made mistakes as well.

That is to be expected. No one has 100% information and there are times, you have to plug the lack of intelligence with your own gut feelings.

You guess right. You win. You guess wrong. You're in front of the firing squad. Everything is a risk. Patton's swing to relieve Bastonge was a hell of a risk, exposing his right flank and subsequent LOCs to strong German forces.

Can you make better decisions? Of course you can. Was it the best decision possible based on the best information available?

Here is where the Soviets got it right. They knew the decision maker (Hitler) and they gave him the information he wanted.

Did others have better insight? Irreverent. They were not the final decision maker.

[Mihais]

Sir,the Soviets were good at this game.But they were far from having something akin to reflexive control on Hitler.

What they were good at was using the oportunities he offered them.Excellent for them.Citadel or Bagration,for example.At Stalingrad they had no idea what they were up against.

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir,the Soviets were good at this game.But they were far from having something akin to reflexive control on Hitler.

Not what I meant. The Germans present strong forces at this spot. The Soviets gave them justification to keep those strong forces at that spot.

What they were good at was using the oportunities he offered them.Excellent for them.Citadel or Bagration,for example.

That's with all good commanders.

At Stalingrad they had no idea what they were up against.

Chuikov certainly did. He had his artillery in a reverse slope ready to rain down on any part of the city.

[Mihais]

Stavka had no idea how many forces the 6th Army had.The expected a third of what was there.

[Officer of Engineers]

Stavka had no idea how many forces the 6th Army had.The expected a third of what was there.

Oh come on, Mihais. There comes a point where the CG knows the intel is wrong and then you proceed accordingly.

[zraver]

The Soviets were usually the group surprised at least until after Kursk. As Luftwaffe strength drained, deserters dried up and Soviet radio practices became better the intelligence windfall the Germans were able to reap faded. Even still Armygroup Mitte successfully deduced the threat it faced and where the attacks would likely land. Had they been permitted to go mobile they would have lost land not men. East Prussia is where the breakdown occurred. OKH was unable to exercise any reasonable operation control. Hitler demanded that Armygroup Mitte stand fast, they tried, they broke, then they died. Similar story at Stalingrad, had the 6th Army been allowed to breakout early it could have rejoined 4th Panzer Army and stabilized the front but Hitler said NO.

It is not outside the realm of possibility that had the German Army been allowed to adopt the elastic defense they wanted the Soviet drives would ahve cost a lot more men and material leaving the USSR too weak for the final pushes into Eastern Europe and Germany.

[Officer of Engineers]

A big what-if here. What if in the event of an American victory in ML China and their demands for a total naval disarmament, the IJN decides to sail for Germany around the Cape of Good Hope?

Never realized just how annoying butterflies are.

[zraver]

A big what-if here. What if in the event of an American victory in ML China and their demands for a total naval disarmament, the IJN decides to sail for Germany around the Cape of Good Hope?

Never realized just how annoying butterflies are.

They would never make it, not enough underway replenishing capacity. It would be more their style to yell Banzai and sail for the US west coast for a climatic show down... Where they would die.

[Officer of Engineers]

For 10 aircraft carriers and their respective wings? I think the Kreigsmarine would do everything they could to replenish them.

But you're right. A kamakazie run would be more their style.

[Mihais]

The Soviets were usually the group surprised at least until after Kursk. As Luftwaffe strength drained, deserters dried up and Soviet radio practices became better the intelligence windfall the Germans were able to reap faded. Even still Armygroup Mitte successfully deduced the threat it faced and where the attacks would likely land. Had they been permitted to go mobile they would have lost land not men. East Prussia is where the breakdown occurred. OKH was unable to exercise any reasonable operation control. Hitler demanded that Armygroup Mitte stand fast, they tried, they broke, then they died. Similar story at Stalingrad, had the 6th Army been allowed to breakout early it could have rejoined 4th Panzer Army and stabilized the front but Hitler said NO.

It is not outside the realm of possibility that had the German Army been allowed to adopt the elastic defense they wanted the Soviet drives would ahve cost a lot more men and material leaving the USSR too weak for the final pushes into Eastern Europe and Germany.

At Stalingrad,they were supposed to maneuver before they got encircled.But overall we agree.
Add in a prepared defensive line on the Dnepr,preceded by a fighting withdrawal instead of Citadel and the Soviets are pretty much fvcked.
The Soviets historically had secret negociations with Germany before Kursk.But they asked for the borders before June 1941.Then came Kursk.Had a new series of defeats would have struck them,they might have folded.

That would have been a very different world from what we have now.

[zraver]

For 10 aircraft carriers and their respective wings? I think the Kreigsmarine would do everything they could to replenish them.

But you're right. A kamakazie run would be more their style.

The Germans didn't have the oiler capacity either.

[Officer of Engineers]

A quick google counts 6 Kreigsmarine and IJN oilers. Where they get the oil is another question that I don't have the answer to.

[Officer of Engineers]

A quick google counts 6 Kreigsmarine and IJN oilers. Where they get the oil is another question that I don't have the answer to.

But I'll say this. The presence of 10 Japanese carriers in the Battle of the Atlantic is all of a sudden extremely interesting. The obvious answer is to spread the convoys out to minimize any one single air attack ... but that is a recipe for a U-Boat happy time.

[Mihais]

A great naval battle,between the USN,RN and RCN might solve the issue in a few weeks.The 10 Japanese carriers will face 60 allied,plus whatever ground based air power.
If the axis carriers stay as ships in being in whatever fjord in Norway,they still can be taken out by the concentration of allied naval aviation.