Originally posted by zraver
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
Fall of France
Collapse
X
-
Chimo
-
And their one and only one answer to these tactics was the banzai charge. In fact, they've done far more bayonet training than they did marksmanship.
i think i sort of exhausted their virtues right there though.There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
Comment
-
Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostWe've already discussed this. The Kwantung Army would have to go into Siberia with all her 25 foot infanty divisions to even have a chance against the Russian 45 divisions, leaving Korea and Manchuria empty. The Red Army just need 10 divisions to fix the Kwantung Army in place and there's nothing in between 35 Red Army divisions and Port Arthur.
Comment
-
Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostNow that I have a chance to think about this more. No, I don't think so. The IJA was the best WWI army in WWII but it was not even close to being the best WWI army of all times. Things that we learned during WWI, overlapping fields of fire, creeping barrage, were absent for the IJA.
And their one and only one answer to these tactics was the banzai charge. In fact, they've done far more bayonet training than they did marksmanship.
Comment
-
Originally posted by zraver View PostThe IJA doesn't need to win for the Soviet's too lose. Just a bunch of cross border raids, artillery duels and bombing attacks would fix the Soviets in place as the Panzer's rolled east.
To ask the IJA to do what you suggest was beyond their military intellect.
Originally posted by zraver View PostThey had the best WWI infantry.
Originally posted by zraver View PostImagine Haig having Japanese troops at the Somme or 3rd Ypres.... creeping close under cover of darkness and then yelling banzai as the barrage lifted... Imagine being the German trench divisions or counter attack divisions that would have to face that? Japan's failures in supporting arms were mainly industrial she had bodies but no Krupp.Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 23 Jan 18,, 21:20.Chimo
Comment
-
Originally posted by Ironduke View PostJapanese vs Soviet industry....
Tanks and self-propelled guns production
Soviets: 100,000+
Japanese: 4500
That number alone should make you think.
Comment
-
Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
And this is the example you're setting. I pointed to you the attempted Japanese Invasion of India as an example of Japanese stupidity and nowhere close to Soviet military thought. Bill Slim didn't lose 60,000 men. He killed 60,000 Japanese when the Japanese tried to invade India.
I point to you that they should not even have tried it since they did not have sufficent food nor munitions and was counting on capturing British stock. That is pure stupidity. I also shown you that the Soviets was well prepared with food and munitions for a million+ men operations and you still tout Japanese military superiority and then tried to explain it away that they were spent. Who cares? Only losers come up with excuses.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Ironduke View PostThe figures I provided cover Japan's resource production including that from all of their historical conquests.
The Japanese are not going to match, even remotely, no matter what they do, the quantity of materiel coming out of the Soviet Union. It goes without saying, that Japan was vastly technologically inferior as well. Japan was outclassed, outnumbered, and outmatched industrially in both of these areas vis-a-vis the Soviets during WWII.
Comment
-
Originally posted by zraver View PostHowever the invasion would have pinned 26 divisions in the East during the Summer and Autumn when they would otherwise have gone west to die against the Germans.
Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostThe Kwantung Army would have to go into Siberia with all her 25 foot infanty divisions to even have a chance against the Russian 45 divisions, leaving Korea and Manchuria empty. The Red Army just need 10 divisions to fix the Kwantung Army in place and there's nothing in between 35 Red Army divisions and Port Arthur.
The reality is that Japan favoured an aggressive southern strategy after events in 1940 in Europe created an opportunity for them. Had they delayed in 1941 and allowed events to play out further, I think they may very well have swung back in favour of the northern strategy given early german success with Barbarbossa, but the non aggression between Germany-Soviet Union sunk the idea and this helped shift power to the navy. The chances of victory aren't essential in evaluating the what ifs because that wasnt Japanese forte, they shouldnt have been willing to execute either strategy in 1940, especially if it involved dragging the Americans in.
Comment
-
Originally posted by tantalus View PostCould the soviets have moved the troops anyway, a war of retreat and defence upon a Japanese invasion? The consensus is the Japanese were hopeless in logistics and a war of manoeuvre...
Originally posted by tantalus View PostWe are assuming a Japanese build up over a sustained period had the northern strategy been favoured and not the movement of troops south and into Indochina. Could the IJA have brought more to the field given the chinese campaign?Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 24 Jan 18,, 00:21.Chimo
Comment
-
Originally posted by Toby View PostOnce the Soviets had moved their production east of the Urals and stopped relying as heavily on Western aid from the US/UK via the Merchant Navy. Production figures are impressive. Pity they can't use that same ingenuity to build a more diverse economy today. On the sources subject, Have you any idea where those figures come from?
The Economics of World War II: Six Great Powers in International Comparison
Russia's War: A History of the Soviet Effort: 1941-1945
Accounting for War: Soviet Production, Employment, and the Defence Burden, 1940-1945
Why the Allies Won
This has some excerpts regarding overall production figures:
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf
Tanks/SPGs
USSR: 102.8k
Japan: 4800
Disparity: 21.5 to 1
Combat Aircraft
USSR: 112.1k
Japan: 55.1k
Disparity: 2 to 1
Machine Guns
USSR: 1516k
Japan: 450k
Disparity: 3.4 to 1
Mortars
USSR: 351.8k
Japan: 7.8k
Disparity: 45 to 1
Artillery
USSR: 482k
Japan: 160k
Disparity: 3 to 1"Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."
Comment
-
A link on the Japanese thought process on the southern and northern doctrines and a detailed layout of the proposed operational plan for an invasion of the soviet far east in 1941. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantokuen
Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostToo many butterflies. Stalin wasted troops left, right, and centre on ill advised attacks only because he knew he got replacement armies coming forth. If those replacement armies were being tied down in the East, then he would not have tried those useless attacks. I think the Battle of Stalingrad would have shifted to Moscow but the outcome would have been the same. The big picture would have remained somewhat close to the OTL but when and where battle momentum changed sides would have changed big time.
Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostOnce the American oil embargo came into effect, the Northern Strategy was dead. We have to remember the primary Japanese objective was the conquest of China and that was why they attacked Pearl Harbour, to knock the Americans out so they can grab SE Asian oil to continue their campaigns in China. A northern strategy would not have given them that oil.
Comment
-
Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostThen, the IJA would not be the IJA. It would be the BIA under Slim. The IJA did not even think in disruption attacks. For them, it's all or nothing. Hell, even the idea of a fixing force is a Soviet concept that the IJA refused to learn at Khalkhin Gol and got the lesson repeated at AUGUST STORM.
To ask the IJA to do what you suggest was beyond their military intellect.
They had the best WWI LIGHT infantry. The IJA was lacking in mortar and medium to heavy machine gun sections.
That's the point, isn't it? I rather have WWI British artillery regiments and expertise than WWII Japanese artillery and their expertise.
Comment
-
Originally posted by zraver View PostThem doing exactly what they did in 39, fight a border war.
Originally posted by zraver View PostIs not outside the realm of what they could conceptualize. If the goal is too pin the Soviet forces in place to let the Germans win they could do it. A Soviet surrender would gain them the areas they wanted in Siberia without needing a full blown invasion.
Originally posted by zraver View PostNeither was very good. The British artillery had a lot of mass but very little flexibility.Chimo
Comment
-
Originally posted by astralis View Posti sometimes wonder if the war could have been shortened if the US wasn't so enamored with the island-hopping campaign. there was a significant anti-British faction within the US government that didn't want to help the Brits at all, because they didn't want Americans dying for the British Empire.
base out of Australia, build massive supply stocks in Aus and India, support Slim, and fight a war for maneuver in China. probably fewer casualties that way than ramming into the teeth of Japanese island defenses one at a time.
Comment
Comment