Originally posted by Ironduke
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Originally posted by Toby View PostAlzheimer's can be a real bugger at times. I quoted the author of the citation, you even said you had the book.
Originally posted by Toby View Postthe 2nd Sino-Japanese war!!!! You know? that other big war to the south!
Originally posted by Toby View PostAll armies capture food. The Soviets did have the advantage of being in their own country though
Originally posted by Toby View PostFrom 41 onwards The Japanese were fighting the Americans, Australians, British/British Indian army, The Chinese both nationalist and communist and latterly the Soviets from 45 and still only surrendered due to 2 atom bombs! which puts holes in your conclusion.
As for the Japanese surrender. It was a 1 (Hiroshima) - 2 (AUGUST STORM) - 3 (Nagasaki) punch. You're right about the two atomic bombs that threatened the homeland but make no mistake, the Imperial Japanese Empire ceased to exist once the Soviets took Manchuria and Korea and only the Home Islands exist.
Originally posted by Toby View PostFurther, just look at Japanese industry after the war and look at Soviet industry. The Japanese are far superior.
Originally posted by Toby View PostThank you. I'll continue to be a jackass just as long as you pretend to be the font of all knowledge.
Originally posted by Toby View PostNo doubt propaganda was used on all sides. Although Bill Slim would have found it a lot harder to misplace 60,000 men! Call the British all you like but we tend not to be as proficient at mass extermination..Unlike others!
I point to you that they should not even have tried it since they did not have sufficent food nor munitions and was counting on capturing British stock. That is pure stupidity. I also shown you that the Soviets was well prepared with food and munitions for a million+ men operations and you still tout Japanese military superiority and then tried to explain it away that they were spent. Who cares? Only losers come up with excuses.Chimo
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Originally posted by astralis View Postand also because of the tyranny of distance and island-hopping. the islands essentially allowed them to fight WWI battles, which was the only thing the IJA could ever really do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...e_Tennis_Court
No artillery and insufficent mortar support.Chimo
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Japan knew she couldn't take on the colonial powers without an European war to distract them. the invasion of SE Asia was opportunistic.
the weakness of the IJA vs the Soviets is apparent just from the casualty numbers of the Soviet invasion of Manchuria. the Soviets were looking at a worst-case scenario of 150,000-200,000 casualties, but in reality "only" took 30,000.
contrast this with the Battle of Berlin, where the Soviets ate 300K+ casualties against the last broken parts of the Wehrmacht and the Volkssturm.
the IJA did well in defensive actions where there was no room to manuever and the opposing force HAD to go in and root out the fanatics. the IJA was completely wrecked any time there was space for maneuver.There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
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At times, not even good WWI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...e_Tennis_Court
No artillery and insufficent mortar support.
and that was without any real opposing supply interdiction.
i sometimes wonder if the war could have been shortened if the US wasn't so enamored with the island-hopping campaign. there was a significant anti-British faction within the US government that didn't want to help the Brits at all, because they didn't want Americans dying for the British Empire.
base out of Australia, build massive supply stocks in Aus and India, support Slim, and fight a war for maneuver in China. probably fewer casualties that way than ramming into the teeth of Japanese island defenses one at a time.There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
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Originally posted by Toby View PostCorrect, no argument. Japan lacked mineral resources, Which is why it embarked on its colonization of Asia. Which then brought it into conflict with the US and UK etc
The Japanese are not going to match, even remotely, no matter what they do, the quantity of materiel coming out of the Soviet Union. It goes without saying, that Japan was vastly technologically inferior as well. Japan was outclassed, outnumbered, and outmatched industrially in both of these areas vis-a-vis the Soviets during WWII.Last edited by Ironduke; 22 Jan 18,, 02:06."Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."
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Originally posted by astralis View Postbase out of Australia, build massive supply stocks in Aus and India, support Slim, and fight a war for maneuver in China. probably fewer casualties that way than ramming into the teeth of Japanese island defenses one at a time.
But I still love the idea of Patton in China.Chimo
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Originally posted by astralis View PostJapan knew she couldn't take on the colonial powers without an European war to distract them. the invasion of SE Asia was opportunistic.
the weakness of the IJA vs the Soviets is apparent just from the casualty numbers of the Soviet invasion of Manchuria. the Soviets were looking at a worst-case scenario of 150,000-200,000 casualties, but in reality "only" took 30,000.
contrast this with the Battle of Berlin, where the Soviets ate 300K+ casualties against the last broken parts of the Wehrmacht and the Volkssturm.
the IJA did well in defensive actions where there was no room to manuever and the opposing force HAD to go in and root out the fanatics. the IJA was completely wrecked any time there was space for maneuver.
i sometimes wonder if the war could have been shortened if the US wasn't so enamored with the island-hopping campaign. there was a significant anti-British faction within the US government that didn't want to help the Brits at all, because they didn't want Americans dying for the British Empire.
base out of Australia, build massive supply stocks in Aus and India, support Slim, and fight a war for maneuver in China. probably fewer casualties that way than ramming into the teeth of Japanese island defenses one at a time.
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Too many egos. MacArthur, Chiang, and Stillwell.
But I still love the idea of Patton in China.
Chiang would probably be over the moon at the idea of huge American formations in China. more money for him to steal, and "oh those Comm- I mean Japanese puppet troops are just over there".
z,
The IJA in China in 45 was not the same force it was prior to 43. While the Soviets grew in combat power, the IJA lost it both in numbers, manpower quality and relative quality vs foreign kit.
Crossing the hump wouldn't be easy.
the Hump was a very cool piece of USAAF history but looking back on it now, an enormous waste of resources. if the Allies actually decided to duke it out in China, suddenly support for the Chinese would, ironically, go way down the totem pole.There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
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Originally posted by astralis View Postz,
agreed. but even from the very start, they were completely outclassed by the Soviets anyway. even assuming the Soviets took 10x the casualties as they did in August Storm, it would still be nothing compared to even one portion of a campaign against the Germans.
doubt we'd try to use the Hump then. base out of India/Aus, re-take Burma, slam right into southern China.
the Hump was a very cool piece of USAAF history but looking back on it now, an enormous waste of resources. if the Allies actually decided to duke it out in China, suddenly support for the Chinese would, ironically, go way down the totem pole.
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Originally posted by astralis View PostJapan knew she couldn't take on the colonial powers without an European war to distract them. the invasion of SE Asia was opportunistic.
the weakness of the IJA vs the Soviets is apparent just from the casualty numbers of the Soviet invasion of Manchuria. the Soviets were looking at a worst-case scenario of 150,000-200,000 casualties, but in reality "only" took 30,000.
contrast this with the Battle of Berlin, where the Soviets ate 300K+ casualties against the last broken parts of the Wehrmacht and the Volkssturm.
the IJA did well in defensive actions where there was no room to manuever and the opposing force HAD to go in and root out the fanatics. the IJA was completely wrecked any time there was space for maneuver.
Originally posted by astralis View Postreading up on it, i was really surprised by just how terrible the Japanese were when it came to logistics. forget insufficient mortar support, after they were beaten and were on the retreat, the British found that the Japanese were literally starving to death because they couldn't bring up enough food.
and that was without any real opposing supply interdiction.
That disregard for logistics worked for them at times. It meant those light IJA forces that stormed across Sth East Asia could wrong foot larger forces that should have been capable of holding them up for longer or even stopping them. However, the logistics gods will not be mocked. Unless everybody gives up & goes home it eventually catches up.sigpic
Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C
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Originally posted by astralis View Postto be fair, i heard the IJA was actually pretty good at the company level,
And their one and only one answer to these tactics was the banzai charge. In fact, they've done far more bayonet training than they did marksmanship.Chimo
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostThe 2nd Sino-Japanese War didn't stopped the Imperial Japanese Empire from doing Pearl Harbour, Hong Kong, Malaya, and the Philipines. IJA Gen Komatsubara was determined to go for round 2 at Khalkhin Gol before Tokyo wisely cried uncle.
That said, Japan's attack on Pearl habour continues to look like the critical miscalculation of the war given american public sentiment to stay out of hostilities. It is a perilous task to discuss what ifs, to think that german success with the rapid fall of france, leads to the removal of the colonial french fleet from south east asia, itself creating conditions that motivated Japan to launch its attack on pearl habour, dragging the US into the war, and ultimately playing a defining role in german defeat (even just with land lease). You can go round and round even at the basic strategic implications of a single altered campaign (even if one ignores logistics, tactics).Last edited by tantalus; 22 Jan 18,, 21:04.
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Originally posted by tantalus View Postthe impression I take from the expertise on show in this thread is that a Japanese-russian war could not have aided the axis cause at all.
At which time, 3 USN carriers and the USMC would be tasked to the ETO. Couple that Stalin has untapped Chinese and Korean manpower and maybe even two or three penal Japanese armies. Japanese tanks and weapons maynot be on par with the Soviets but the Soviets had no qualms about throwing everything including the kitchen sink into meatgrinders. These factors would not change the face of MARS, URANUS, BAGRATION, OVERLORD, AVALANCHE (ie, how the campaigns would have been conducted) but they would have reduced the time between campaigns.
All in all, the Germans were lucking the Japanese didn't march north.Chimo
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostI think it would have been a serious Axis strategic mistake. If the Japanese attack, even in timing with BARBAROSSA, they would have handed Manchuria and Korea to the Soviets.
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