Fall of France

[zraver]

But we're only talking Manchuria and Korea, not all of China which is about the same size as Finland.

In this scenario the Soviets would need to drive a couple hundred miles to reach Korea. Chinese Manchuria is 600k square miles, 4x larger than Finland. Then there is Korea which is about half the size of Finland, and occupied parts of Mongolia. In Finland the goal was the Petsama (sp?) region so the depth of area that needed to be taken was rather small, a lot smaller than the entire country. Granted the Soviets don't have to take all of it, the IJA isn't all that big, only 37 divisions to fend off the Soviets and fight the Chinese, but Manchuria is deep.

[Toby]

Do you seriously not know who WABs_OOE is?

Yeh I do and I'm sure he's havin a good belly laugh. Strikes me as a guy with a bloody good sense of humour..eh Tarek...You may refer to word of the day at this point.

Ever wonder why some folk address the 'NOOB' as 'sir'? When I first got here the Colonel didn't consider it a good week until he had torn a few limbs off a 'NOOB'. harsh but fair ;-). You are just lucky that he has mellowed in his old age.

I'm afraid the 'NOOB' here is you.

Take a chill pill before you have a coronary

[Toby]

ahh, forget WAB...i knew Col Yu back when he was ripping people to pieces on the now defunct China Military Forum. this was around 1999-2000. you think this is bad, this is nothing compared to the treatment meted out to the China PLA fanboys.

Toby,

just read up on it on wiki if nothing else. there's a reason why the Japanese were ripped to shreds in such a short period of time. i remember one of my earlier discussions with the colonel, that part of the reason for this was that the Japanese by then had been sending their best troops to fight the Americans in the Pacific or to defend their home islands. but reading through the way the Soviets repeatedly encircled the clueless Japanese persuaded me that even the 1941 IJA would have been wrecked by such an application of mobility.

Cheers!..I am doin, which is why I was questioning sources. Its only when you understand where the source came from that you begin to get an reasonably accurate picture. You can apply that logic to anything!

[Toby]

That was far more diplomatic than I would have been. I may have gotten banned or at least a strongly worded missive had I seen and been able to reply to that post.

Hey Toby, ever been beat about the head by a one armed man? I would gladly do it too you. Used to have 2 arms, but when I was a noob, OOE tore one off. It would behoove you too apologize, the colonel is a man of honor. There is a lot of backstory here that you don't know, will likely never know. You are a late comer to this party. We've watched each others kids grow up, seen each other get married, divorced and sadly watched far too many members of the community die.

And Holy Shit, I've been a member here for over a decade.

BF, one week exactly till you hit a decade as a wabbit.

Have you not sold that heap of junk yet?
Not much has changed on here since I was on 10 years ago, same humourless brown nosers talking the same crap!

[Bigfella]

Yeh I do and I'm sure he's havin a good belly laugh. Strikes me as a guy with a bloody good sense of humour..eh Tarek...You may refer to word of the day at this point.

Any laughter is at the poor quality of your rather repetitive observations about the Red Army.

Take a chill pill before you have a coronary

I'll be fine. I'm determined to live at least long enough to see you back up your views on the Red Army v the IJA with something more than glib generalizations and evasion. I suspect that guarantees me a nice, long life.

Your inability to distinguish between respect & brown nosing is sadly in keeping with the worth of the rest of your contributions here.

[Toby]

Any laughter is at the poor quality of your rather repetitive observations about the Red Army.



I'll be fine. I'm determined to live at least long enough to see you back up your views on the Red Army v the IJA with something more than glib generalizations and evasion. I suspect that guarantees me a nice, long life.

Your inability to distinguish between respect & brown nosing is sadly in keeping with the worth of the rest of your contributions here.

Mines a Guinness with a jameson, its your round!

[Officer of Engineers]

In this scenario the Soviets would need to drive a couple hundred miles to reach Korea. Chinese Manchuria is 600k square miles, 4x larger than Finland. Then there is Korea which is about half the size of Finland, and occupied parts of Mongolia. In Finland the goal was the Petsama (sp?) region so the depth of area that needed to be taken was rather small, a lot smaller than the entire country. Granted the Soviets don't have to take all of it, the IJA isn't all that big, only 37 divisions to fend off the Soviets and fight the Chinese, but Manchuria is deep.

Several things,

1) Then we're talking horse country.

2) The Kwantung Army is only 25 divisons.

3) If we're talking a 42 timeline action, then we have to consider that the Soviets built up for Operations Mars and Uranus for Stalingrad. Granted that there isn't such urgency in this what-if but we also ain't talking about the Soviets taking the losses from BARBAROSSA.

4) The KMT and the Communists were still very dangerous with both scoring some victories against the IJA, espeically Mao's 100 Regts Offense. So, the IJA cannot move divisions from other areas to confront the Soviets while the same is not true with Mao.

5) Red Army Engineers were just as good then as they were in 45.

[astralis]

I didn't know about the Chinese forum, apparently he had his fingers in quite a few pies.

not to out the old man even further, but if there was an Asian country with a defense forum he was probably there. Taiwan Military Forum, India Defence Forum, Pakistan Defense Forum, etc.

hey, col, you want a nice trip down memory lane? look at these old chew toys from 2003 b*tching and moaning about the bodyslams you gave them. hahahaha, forever memorialized on the Internet.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/21183...rrogant+bigots.

brings a tear to the eye.

[Officer of Engineers]

brings a tear to the eye.

Thanks for the chuckle. WAB is the only forum I occasionally visit now a days. I don't have the energy to go looking for chew toys. Hell, chew toys are now boring. Getting old sucks. Getting older dives.

[Officer of Engineers]

Have you not sold that heap of junk yet?
Not much has changed on here since I was on 10 years ago, same humourless brown nosers talking the same crap!

Give it up. You forgot who I was or else, you would not be asking for sources. They are littered throughout this forum. You have no interest in learning anything or else you would not be repeating crap that we threw out in the 70s, especially those who stood guard. What scared us wasn't Russian numbers. What scared us was that the Russians knew how to use those numbers. I've posted links on NATO's publications. One of them was the Soviet Battle Book published in the 80s, meaning the knowledge was available in the 70s. Those of us who read it can recognize Stalingrad, Kursk, BAGGRATION, Berlin, as well as AUGUST STORM.

Russian military thought is large, cutting edge, innovative, and deep, worthy of respect and study. You have neither.

[Oracle]

I knew that was coming, and the Colonel still has his hounds on a leash.

[zraver]

Several things,

1) Then we're talking horse country.

Pretty much and for both sides. The Soviets have 90k horses in the FE, most draft animals.

2) The Kwantung Army is only 25 divisons.

The IJA has another 13 on the Soviet border.

3) If we're talking a 42 timeline action, then we have to consider that the Soviets built up for Operations Mars and Uranus for Stalingrad. Granted that there isn't such urgency in this what-if but we also ain't talking about the Soviets taking the losses from BARBAROSSA.

There also isn't the industrial oomph of a war time footing, though supplies are not really a concern, the FE has good stocks on hand. As an aside, Mars and Uranus were the last gasp of the USSR's pre-war stocks of ammunition.

4) The KMT and the Communists were still very dangerous with both scoring some victories against the IJA, espeically Mao's 100 Regts Offense. So, the IJA cannot move divisions from other areas to confront the Soviets while the same is not true with Mao.

No they can't move all of them, many though they can. It would cede territory to the Chinese but thats a much smaller concern than a Soviet invasion. The IJA can only rule China where it is, Mao can only rule China where the IJA isn't.

5) Red Army Engineers were just as good then as they were in 45.[/QUOTE]

Probably so, but we are not debating who wins, but how the Soviets win.

[Officer of Engineers]

Then is it within the relm of probability (note I ask of probability) that the resources of either MARS or URANUS be assigned to Manchuria. If so, what is lacking then to do a AUGUST STORM?

[Bigfella]

There also isn't the industrial oomph of a war time footing, though supplies are not really a concern, the FE has good stocks on hand. As an aside, Mars and Uranus were the last gasp of the USSR's pre-war stocks of ammunition.

There may not be the 'industrial oomph', but this is a USSR in full possession of all its 1941 industry, resources & population. No time & resources lost having to relocate factories & workers or just plain build & train new ones. It won't take nearly the effort to produce that sort of output in this ATL as it would in OTL. Soviet industry won't be running at wartime tempo, but capacity will still be more than enough.

I would also suggest that if pre-war stocks lasted long enough for Mars & Uranus then they will be more than adequate for this operation with some left to spare.

[Bigfella]

4) The KMT and the Communists were still very dangerous with both scoring some victories against the IJA, espeically Mao's 100 Regts Offense. So, the IJA cannot move divisions from other areas to confront the Soviets while the same is not true with Mao.

This reminds me why it is cool to be on a forum with China experts. If I were only acquainted with Japanese operations against the Allied powers in 1941-42 I might think of them as some sort of all-conquering force. Being prompted to take a dive into the Sino-Japanese war shows that the IJA was far from that. While it was clearly the superior army, it still lost big battles to the Nationalists & the Communists all through the time period we are discussing.

Neither of those armies were remotely comparable to what Japan would have faced in Manchuria. Not even close.