Why do Aussies and Kiwis hold grudges about Douglas MacArthur?

[zraver]

He was an utter disaster as a military commander. I have great respect for the US military and have many good mates in US services, but in the case of MacArthur he was, I assert, a disgrace to the uniform he wore, and a man who was, quite possibly, mentally deranged.

Please explain how he was a disaster as a military commander. I can think of at least 3 brilliant moves he made. 1 had absolute forsight.

1- Creating the Phillipine Army. While under-gunned due to a lack of supplies and funding from the US Government these troops fought hard and died side by side with Americans. Without them the early attacks on the Phillipines and and later occupation of the island would ahve been much easier for the Japanese.

2- Inchon in the Korean war was a classic master stroke. Before he over reached the UN force sunder his command took the North Korean capitol and almost all of its industry and population and destroyed the North Korean Army.

3- The re-invasion of the Phillipines forced the Japanese navy's surface ships and aircraft as well as the army air forces fighters to waste the last of thier combat strength when they were most needed to fend off Nimitz planned drives on Japan.

Clackers,

have you by chance looked at pictures of the Owen Stanleys? There was no way to use tanks there. Once across the mountains Mac switched to leap frogging airborne attacks and amphibious landings. A lack of tanks is due more to Terrain than generalship. At the point in timeof the PNG campaign, allied troops as often as not still though of Jungle as impassable and wholly Japanese. It takes time for the lessons of the PNG campaign and Gaudalcanal to sink in.

In the Phillipines, Mac did not want to fight for the city, neither did the Japanese commander, but his junior officers put bushido over orders and chose to fight. If you look at the map you see the city bi-sects Luzon island and with out allied forces on either end could not get to each other but by air or sea. The city had to be taken by storm once the Japanese decided to fight.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middl...ines_rel93.jpg

[JAD_333]

Bill,

If you read this thread, you're preaching to the choir. Welcome to the board.

Count me out of the choir. Bill, had a few things right, but coward, waster of human life, liar...altogether inaccurate. MacArthur didn't get to where he got for no good reason. He's not a sympathic person to me, but give him his due.

[Officer of Engineers]

Mac never accepted responsibilities for his defeats. That makes him a coward, a liar, and wasted the lives of the men under his command.

[zraver]

Mac never accepted responsibilities for his defeats. That makes him a coward, a liar, and wasted the lives of the men under his command.

Niether did Napoleon.

[Officer of Engineers]

Napoleon was a bigger liar, especially to himself. His Egypt expedition was a disaster and a half and yet he wrote it as a victory.

[Ray]

Rather strong sentiments all around.

Everyone has chin.ks in his armour and none is perfect.

He may have been a self publicist, but then we have to also give him and everyone else his due.

Was he really a coward, liar and did he waste lives?

Examples to understand these, please!

[S2]

A Bit More

For those of you interested, Manchester's American Caesar stands out. Also, a couple of relevant treatise from the U.S. Army's Center For Military History that you may find of interest-

Papuan Campaign- The Buna-Sanananda Operation- CMH[

The Reports of Gen. MacArthur- CMH

[Albert1981]

We do of course know each other, WABbers ... in fact, if you're out there, S-2, I went to the great Black Crowes gig with him ...

Now, to save me a phone call, Bigfella (or Albert1981, for that matter, since you've read American Caesar as well), what does William Manchester have to say about Big Mac accepting half a million dollars from the Filipino President after he had rejoined the US Army? That's a vast sum of money in 1942.

Here's a good explanation:

Mystery Money - TIME

[JAD_333]

Mac never accepted responsibilities for his defeats. That makes him a coward, a liar, and wasted the lives of the men under his command.

It seems he didn't like to admit he was wrong, but what do you expect of someone who truly didn't think he was wrong? No one who has the courage of his convictions can be called a coward. Rash is the word I would use; it along with cowardness are the extremes of courage.

[Officer of Engineers]

His failure to carry out RAINBOW-5 and his subsequent defence of his actions is anything but the courage of his convictions.

[raafbloke]

G'day TopHatter, sorry couldn't respond sooner had problems with initial log ins, this being my first day on the board. To your comments: If you like I can send you the bibliography of Jack Gallaway's book and others that reference their sources that - generally - back up my thoughts on Big Mac. I note an later poster, Albert, I think, mentions his 3 purple hearts. Now this bloke was well known for giving himself awards and decorations. As to putting himself deliberately in harm's way it was probably only because his three still photographers and two motion picture photographers missed initial shots of him, as happened often. I'm not familiar with the references of the previous board member who claim he regularly was in the thick of it but it goes against all I've read of him. He had a particular knack for self-preservation while advertising the opposite. Hope we can discuss further.
Cheers,
Bill Halliwell

[JAD_333]

His failure to carry out RAINBOW-5 and his subsequent defence of his actions is anything but the courage of his convictions.

True, he also delayed on Plan Orange which called for bombing the nearest Japanese air assets, which I believe, were at Formosa. Rainbow 5 had an appeal process by which a commander could ask for an alternate plan and MacArthur availed himself of it to advocate a defense at the beaches rather than at Corrigador. Consequently he failed to move supplies to Corrigador. His overarching mistake was assuming Japan wouldn't move on the Phillipines so soon after Pearl. It is said he was in denial when he heard the news about Pearl and dragged his feet most to the day on Dec 8 in executing Plan Orange; had his air assets attacked the Japanese airfields on Formosa sooner as the plan called for, things might have turned out differently. For this MacArthur bears responsibility.

[S2]

raafbloke Reply

"I'm not familiar with the references of the previous board member who claim he regularly was in the thick of it but it goes against all I've read of him."

Then you haven't read nearly enough. PURPLE HEARTS are WOUND awards. No liars there. Two DSCs and seven silver stars says too much good about him. To call him a liar and someone to fabricate these awards is to cast aspersion on all those giving testimony to those awarded actions.

This man faced battle many times. You do your credibility a disservice when weighing your vehemence against your knowledge.

No lack of one. Too little of the other.

[raafbloke]

G'day Zraver,
Thought I'd touch very sensitive nerves on this topic. It was not my intention to stir up a bee-hive, rather present what I've, and others have found to be reliable estimates, at least, of facts from corroborated sources. Big Mac was a gambler, never a sign of considered and time-tested experience. Inchon, well, his troops managed to pull that off, daring move, certainly but if he'd failed in his gamble he'd have been pilloried as much as our Gordon Bennett was for runming away from Singapore. I have read documents in the Australian National Archives that prove Mac thought the Kokoda track or trail was more of a road that could easily take tanks and heavy artillary. Trouble was he spent most of his years in Australia in 3 and 5 star hotels and his direct understanding of the terrain was filtered and censored by the cotery of his senior staff who were loath to tell the great man anything approaching the truth that might upset him. Your apparent contention that he understood the terrible difficulties of the track just doen't pan out. One of the main reasons he sent Blamey up to PNG to dress down and then, reluctantly, sack Australian General Sydney Rowell was because Mac thought the Australians just weren't up to the task. Fact is, by the time Blamey got up there and had his unwanted confrontation with Rowell Australian forces had driven back the bulk of the *** threat. Mac was an impatient man, unwilling to listen to bad news and obsessed to press on with his 'divine' quest to return to the Phillippines no matter what. I am more than willing to give a flawed man his dues, case in point is Blamey, a deeply flawed personality but with a far greater strategic understanding and a wealth of experience in large planning overviews of multi-faceted operations. (Plus hands-on battlefield command, although limited in quantity.) Mac turns up in PNG with his razor sharp creases in his new uniform, takes a quick look around and then scrurries back to Prime Minister Curtin, that afternoon with a literny of complaints about the fighting capabilities of Australian troops, their 'sub-standard' leadership and their logiistic shortcomings. Upshot of it is I just can't take this man seriously, although almost all he did was seriously wrong. He even lied about how tall he was. Heavens, what a lunatic. His photographers shot him 'up' as we say in the trade, that made him look taller than those around him. Blamey was 5'10" tall. General Eichelberger was a former basketball player and a good 6'2" tall. I have photos taken by Mac's staff that make Mac appear taller than him. Jack Gallaway, whom I've interviewed swore to me the most striking feature about him meeting Big Mac for the first time was how short the man was. No more than 5' 7.5" max. In photos taken by Australian press photographers Big Mac is glaring at them angrily because he knows he's standing next to Prime Minister Curtin and others who were taller than him. This is the personality profile of a true tactical and strategic genius? The debate continues.

[raafbloke]

G'day S-2,
Yes, I'm aware Purple Hearts are wound decorations and I agree they are, and should be held in high regard. Yet there are miriad reports of troops and officers getting the Purple Heart for having abcesses lanced in war zones. Decorations aside. I see Mac as a rank opportunist, apart from the documented and corroborated lies. I'll stand by my assertions and am willing to forward extensive bibliographies that, coincidentally, go along with my conclusions of the man. We had our share of disgraceful senior officers, as did the Brits and all nations involved, it's just that some stand out from the pack and Big Mac is a doozy. Truman dismisssed him for being a genius? I think not. Roosevelt, apart from being detached from such matters of on the ground fighting would never have touched Mac because they were both patriticians of the ruling class. Rounding off this particular gripe of mine, I state again that the US saved our asses on numerous occasions, often by sheer weight of numbers, however, I have great personal esteem for the American fighting man, having met many of them, of yesteryear and today. It's not all Mac's fault that he was given the status of a near deity, impossible to reproach, but he did his best, not to disabuse that impression of him which, obviously, exists in an extremely healthy fashion right to this very day.
Regards to all and my deepest respect to all respectable men and women at arms the world over.
yours sincerely,
Bill Halliwell
Hobart, Tasmania.