Why do Aussies and Kiwis hold grudges about Douglas MacArthur?

[Officer of Engineers]

He did not openly defy operational orders; he openly disagreed with them.

One and the same. If I am to disagree with a policy, I have to resign first.

Colonel, you and I both know that is an impossible question. It really doesn't matter what he thought; what mattered was that he was ordered out. That's just military pragmatism. Senior commanders with experience are deemed more important than men in the ranks. Besides his death or capture would have been a propaganda victory for the Japanese.

At the very least, accept responsibility for the action. Instead, he placed his Generals in an impossible situation and then berating them for having the gall to surrender.

At times it did and at times it didn't. But isn't that pretty much the case for any commander with a long record of service? Gen. Grant, in our civil war, had his less than sterling moments.

Grant, Lee, Longstreet, Sherman, all the great ACW Captains knew when when they were wrong. They were their own worst critics. The measure of Great Captains is not when things go right but when things go wrong. Lee, like Yamamoto at Midway, accepted personal responsibility for Gettysburg.

However, even when things go right for Mac, he still manages to somehow screw it up. The Inchon Landing has been touted this great strategic feat but did anyone noticed that the North Korean Army managed to retreat in order back across the 38th Parallel? And they were chased back by the Pusan Breakout, not by the Inchon Landing threatening to cut the LOC.

That does not make him an inept general overall.

As I stated before, he would have been pasted if he was in the ETO.

What set MacArthur apart from most of his comtemporaries was his self-aggrandizement, tendency to blame other factors for his failures, and using the political system to get his way.

I'm not arguing on Mac's accomplishments. However beautiful or ugly his methods, he did drive the Japanese back. He was winning his war. However, by no means was he the decisive factor in the PTO. He was not hitting Japan's centres of power.

Perhaps he gets more credit than he deserves. That's hardly a reason to reject his entire career.

You do have a point there. Perhaps I am overcompensating for the fact that I saw better Generals who did not get Mac's credit and Generals who did not deserve Mac's blame.

[JAD_333]

You have put me in a tight spot.

Unintended, but you're the only general officer handy to ask.

My friendship was important since this was not a battle that protected my nation.

I agree that there should be free speech. My post should have indicated that.

Taken for granted.

I am also unhappy with the over censorship that has suddenly overcome this forum, but at the same time, I am sure there is a method to this madness!

Those are sometimes difficult calls for a mod. Have you had a private tete-a-tete with the colonel?

As a Commander, I would lead from the front and die - not only for the nation, but also to avoid the stupid commissions and inquiries that are constituted to do a ''post mortem'' of wars! They are more painful than the enemy !:P:))

[/QUOTE]

Ah, my compliments on a most diplomatic response. :);):)):P:));):):):)

[JAD_333]

One and the same. If I am to disagree with a policy, I have to resign first.

There may come a time for resigning, but I would expect a general to press his views without picking up his ball and going home at the first rebuff.

At the very least, accept responsibility for the action.

Agreed.

As I stated before, he would have been pasted if he was in the ETO.

I doubt IKE would have wanted him around.

I'm not arguing on Mac's accomplishments. However beautiful or ugly his methods, he did drive the Japanese back. He was winning his war. However, by no means was he the decisive factor in the PTO. He was not hitting Japan's centres of power.

Stopping Japan's advance may not be decisive, but it is significant.

You do have a point there. Perhaps I am overcompensating for the fact that I saw better Generals who did not get Mac's credit and Generals who did not deserve Mac's blame.

In warfighting, I could agree with you. In overall strategic thinking, he was topflight.

[Officer of Engineers]

In warfighting, I could agree with you. In overall strategic thinking, he was topflight.

To this date, I still can't figure out why no one sent an army to fight in China. Win the war in China and the Imperial Japanese Empire disappears. And it wouldn't have taken much. Replace Chiang and unleash Stillwell.

[JAD_333]

To this date, I still can't figure out why no one sent an army to fight in China. Win the war in China and the Imperial Japanese Empire disappears. And it wouldn't have taken much. Replace Chiang and unleash Stillwell.

The only thing I can find on the subject is that FDR and Churchill worked hard to get the Soviets to declare war on Japan and take on Japanese forces. especially in Manchuria. At Yalta the Soviets agreed, for a price of course, and 6 months later they attacked. This was near the end of the war, and just as you surmise, that and the dropping of the A-bombs convinced Japan they were done. Just speculating, but it could be that coming at Japanese forces in China from the north was better than from the south through Burma. I've also heard it argued that the western allies didn't send an army into China because they didn't want to draw resources from other theaters and didn't want to marshall new resources. The US just wanted to knock off Japan and get its boys home.

[astralis]

col yu,

To this date, I still can't figure out why no one sent an army to fight in China. Win the war in China and the Imperial Japanese Empire disappears. And it wouldn't have taken much. Replace Chiang and unleash Stillwell.

stillwell thought the war would have been won in china, too. i suppose the US didn't go in because of logistics concerns. as for replacing chiang, whom would the US replace him with?

in the end i think the US was fixated on bringing the war to japanese soil through island-hopping. as for the soviets, i wonder if they knew how vulnerable japan was this entire time. by 1945 the soviets were immensely strong and had eliminated its mortal enemy. before then, don't know if the russians had the confidence that they could knock out japan fast enough and not lose ground against the germans.

[Ray]

[QUOTE=JAD_333;534249]

The Colonel is my friend; at least that is from my side.

To me my friend is always and every time!!

Those are sometimes difficult calls for a mod. Have you had a private tete-a-tete with the colonel?

No. He can be pigheaded at times. Here, he sure indicates such resolve. Why stir up the hornets? :))

Ah, my compliments on a most diplomatic response. :);):)):P:));):):):)

Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown! :P:))

[Ray]

=astralis;534307]col yu,



stillwell thought the war would have been won in china, too. i suppose the US didn't go in because of logistics concerns. as for replacing chiang, whom would the US replace him with?

in the end i think the US was fixated on bringing the war to japanese soil through island-hopping. as for the soviets, i wonder if they knew how vulnerable japan was this entire time. by 1945 the soviets were immensely strong and had eliminated its mortal enemy. before then, don't know if the russians had the confidence that they could knock out japan fast enough and not lose ground against the germans.

They stole the northern Japanese island.

Clever little ticks!

[Albany Rifles]

Why not China?

As Astralis stated, it was in the too hard to do box logistically for one. Secondly, remember that the US and UK had a Germany First policy right fromt he start. That was Churchill's main purpose for coming to the Arcadia Conference in DEC 41- JAN 42. Thirdly, as has bean said, how much empowerment did the Western Powers really want to give Chiang? I have always contended that the Western Allies were perfectly happy to marginalize that war to keep a large Japanese land army tied down. Finally, America was committed to a drive across the Central Pacific as its main objective in the Pacific because a) it was the shortest route to Tokyo, b) the Central Pacific was were the US possessions were....Pearl and Midway had to be protected, c) the SW PAcific had the goal of keeping Australia in the war and supporting the Central Pacific campaign. The liberation fo the Phillipines was not an original objective. Mac had to convince Marshall and FDR to over rule King and Nimitz in order to get the resources to liberate the PIs.

A major support for China would do nothing to support those goals.

[ArmchairGeneral]

Taking out China has always been my strategy against Japan in Axis and Allies. Of course, my strategy for Japan involves marching on Moscow with the mighty Japanese tank armies, so maybe it ain't too good a guide to proper strategy. :))

[Albany Rifles]

Taking out China has always been my strategy against Japan in Axis and Allies. Of course, my strategy for Japan involves marching on Moscow with the mighty Japanese tank armies, so maybe it ain't too good a guide to proper strategy. :))

DAMN!!!!!

Why didn't Marshall and King think of that!?!?!?!?!?!!?:)):))

[Officer of Engineers]

No. He can be pigheaded at times. Here, he sure indicates such resolve. Why stir up the hornets? :))

And here, Sir, I thought you knew me better than that. If you are going to pigeon me into an animal pun, at least do the entire animal. I would appreciate it if you call me a jackass.

[S2]

OoE Reply

"I would appreciate it if you call me a jackass."

Hardly, Colonel. You've nothing to regret nor shall any dismissed be grieved over. They deserved it for one reason or another.

The Brigadier has felt compelled to make his point-and has. So noted but this responsibility falls under your purview and watch for which you need offer no direct nor oblique apology.

[Officer of Engineers]

I've got to learn how to use smileys.

[S2]

OoE Reply

"I've got to learn how to use smileys."

I hope not. It's incongruous with lowering the boom. You're this unit's executive officer. No walk to your office should be met with a smiley face.