Most decisive battle of World War 2

[ANZAC]

Once Stalin finishes his fight with Hitler, win or lose. Do you think he was going to let Tojo run around in his rear? In fact, if Stalin did lose his war with Hitler, he would need China and Korea more as they will be his only means of survival. And that means smashing the hell out of the IJA and destroying the Imperial Japanese Empire.

Think I see where your coming from now.

But I still can't understand the bit about needing Korea, as Korea was a completely subjugated vassal state under the Japanese, no help for Stalin there.

As for smashing the hell out of the IJA and destroying the Imperial Japanese Empire.

Well, you're probably thinking about the Red Army circa 1945, when it was the most powerful army in the world, and went through a second rate Japanese army in Manchuria like a hot knife through butter.

But 'if' Stalin did lose his war with Hitler, I don't think the Red Army would be any position like 1945.

With the loss of the Ukrainian bread basket, White Russia etc and about 70 million people, the Red Army gutted, and most importantly, the Caucuses oil gone, and having to guard against Germany and Turkey, the last thing Stalin wants is to come to grips with 2 million crack Japanese troops.

Best he could hope for is that the Japanese Manchurian army didn't get their way in pushing for a invasion of the Soviet Union, that's if there was any ''Union'' left.

[Triple C]

No ANZAC,

Zhukov soundly defeated the Japanese Imperial Army at Khalkhin-Gol in 1939. So complete was the Russian victory that, in 1941, Richard Sorge told Stalin he need fear nothing from the Japanese because they had no stomach for another fight with the Red Army.

Attacking the Caucasus was never going to be successful with or without the Russian counterstroke in Stalingrad. The German forces were immobalized by Fall 1942.

[gabriel]

For Romania it was Stalingrad, were my grandfather served with the Romanian 1 cavalry division. The Odessa loses were also high but Stalingrad...

[Officer of Engineers]

With the loss of the Ukrainian bread basket, White Russia etc and about 70 million people, the Red Army gutted, and most importantly, the Caucuses oil gone, and having to guard against Germany and Turkey, the last thing Stalin wants is to come to grips with 2 million crack Japanese troops.

OH COME ON! The Soviets smashed that army in less than 3 weeks. The Japanese was never a match and was a damned WWI army and every body knew it, especailly Stalin.

[ANZAC]

No ANZAC,

Zhukov soundly defeated the Japanese Imperial Army at Khalkhin-Gol in 1939. So complete was the Russian victory that, in 1941, Richard Sorge told Stalin he need fear nothing from the Japanese because they had no stomach for another fight with the Red Army.

Attacking the Caucasus was never going to be successful with or without the Russian counterstroke in Stalingrad. The German forces were immobalized by Fall 1942.

That's correct, Zhukov gave a couple of divisions a bloody nose in '39, before the Wehrmacht gutted the Red Army, but going by OoE's scenario, Stalin loses the war, which following on with that 'what if' means the Germans have the caucuses.

Little or no oil for what's left of the Red Army's war machine, 70 million population swept from the map, loosing the Ukrainian breadbasket, German armies and Turks on their Western borders, and 2 million Japanese in the East.

Plus, in this 'what if' if the Soviets moved against the Japanese, Hitler could decide to move in and take Siberia.

Don't think the Japanese have much to worry about in this 'what if' scenario.
But back in the real world, by '45, it's curtains for Japan.

OH COME ON! The Soviets smashed that army in less than 3 weeks. The Japanese was never a match and was a damned WWI army and every body knew it, especially Stalin.

I explained that above, in 45' the Kwantung army was an under strength, second rate army, the best men in China and the Pacific, and no match for the Red Army, by then the best army in the world.

But under your 'what if' scenario, this is 41/42, and as you say Stalin has LOST the war, meaning the Red Army is in in even worse condition then they were historically, and light years away from what they were in '45 and for the reasons I posted above, would have been in heaps of trouble.

[Officer of Engineers]

But under your 'what if' scenario, this is 41/42, and as you say Stalin has LOST the war, meaning the Red Army is in in even worse condition then they were historically, and light years away from what they were in '45 and for the reasons I posted above, would have been in heaps of trouble.

There were 45 Soviet Divisions that never went West.

[ANZAC]

There were 45 Soviet Divisions that never went West.

And 200+, German and Axis divisions on one border, and 50 Japanese Divisions on the other.

[Triple C]

Anzac,

Little or no oil for what's left of the Red Army's war machine, 70 million population swept from the map, loosing the Ukrainian breadbasket, German armies and Turks on their Western borders, and 2 million Japanese in the East.

Given a plausible German victory, control of the Crimean oil fields remained impossible. The Wehrmacht marched on Crimea with their best Army Group and it was stopped without the aid of forces from other Fronts. The Caucasian mountains was enough for the Red Army to fall back on.

The lost of Ukraine and Belorussia already occurred in 1941. That was a given and it did not weaken the Red Army in the Far East. The point is that the Japanese got wiped out by the Russian army of 1939 freshly wounded from the Great Purge. In order for the scenario you elaborated to be true, the IJA must beat the Russian army of 1941. The Eastern troops remained the elites of the Red Army well into 1945 and as OoE noted, was held in reserve.

Think about it.

[Officer of Engineers]

And 200+, German and Axis divisions on one border,

Irrevelent since that part of the war is over.

and 50 Japanese Divisions on the other.

And 87 Chinese Divisions that now would come under Zhukov's command.

[Triple C]

I think you are missing out on the earlier dicussions on where the Wehrmacht would end up if it took Moscow. The government had moved East with most of the war industry and Russia out-produced Germay already in 1942. Siberia was -30 degrees, and still several hundred miles further from supplies than where the Wehrmacht actually starved to death.

Basically, the Germans would end up with less defendable frozen ground of no value, exposed to a colder climate and begging all the harder to get destroyed. Won't take much effort to keep them at bay. On the meanwhile, Japan would fight Zhukov with the same old infantry divisions, with the same tanks, same under-motorized logistics.

[TwelveAM]

Well, if assuming that Hitler had defeated Stalin, I highly doubt he would have let the Soviets maintain such powerful army as they did.

[jlvfr]

Battle of Britain. Stopped Hitler from forcing the UK to surrender. Everything that came after was only possible thanks to this.

[Triple C]

Well, if assuming that Hitler had defeated Stalin, I highly doubt he would have let the Soviets maintain such powerful army as they did.

It's not up to Hitler.

[zraver]

The lost of Ukraine and Belorussia already occurred in 1941. That was a given and it did not weaken the Red Army in the Far East.

1941, took over half the Eastern troops, 50%+ loss of combat power is indeed weakening.

The Eastern troops remained the elites of the Red Army well into 1945 and as OoE noted, was held in reserve.Think about it.

The eastern troops were not the elites, AFAIK, the spearhead sin 45 were troops shipped from the west because they had combat experience, modern equipment, and knew how to fight a deep battle. The Eastern troops had been sitting still for over six years.

[astralis]

triple C,

Basically, the Germans would end up with less defendable frozen ground of no value, exposed to a colder climate and begging all the harder to get destroyed. Won't take much effort to keep them at bay. On the meanwhile, Japan would fight Zhukov with the same old infantry divisions, with the same tanks, same under-motorized logistics.

i thought i had a feeling of deja vu.

in this scenario, i wonder how plausible it would be for the germans to draw a line from the ukraine up to estonia and try to hold on to that. the amount of destruction wreaked upon soviet industry and transportation following a fall of moscow and a withdrawal behind the urals would also consequently give the germans time to fortify their defenses, regroup and retrain their troops.

not so sure if the western allies would have wanted to attempt a normandy after that- and without the allies, you'd be looking at a stalemate and perhaps a three-way cold war.