"Thank God for the Atom Bomb"

[Parihaka]

So say that...

I did

Don\'t say you did it to save lives of the world.

I didn't

You saved your own lives.

Well just to nitpick my daddy and granddaddies et al saved mine, but yes, that's what they did. Would you rather they all lined up and let the Japanese shoot them?

[Shek]

Just to give a scope of the potential casualties averted by the dropping of the atomic bombs, the US military had ordered 500,000 purple hearts for use in the scheduled invasion of Japan (this wasn't the upper limit of estimations, just a solid order to make sure that there would be enough on hand at the start of the operations).

This stockpile has lasted the military up through now (some medals were ordered in the meantime, but only because 125,000 of this stockpile fell off the books and its existence had been forgotten).

http://www.purplehearts.net/id6.html
http://hnn.us/articles/1801.html

One study predicted in excess of ten million fatalities (Japanese and US) given the assumption that the Japanese population defended their homeland as fanatically as the island hopping campaign had gone.

[Asim Aquil]

Would you rather they all lined up and let the Japanese shoot them?

No just don't melt the ones, who aren't shooting.

[Shek]

They want to remove Iran's nuclear weapons don't they?

They bombed Iraq's nuclear weapons production facilities didn't they?

They do also arm and supply India with crucial high tech weaponry to be used against Pak

They do also blockade funds to the Hamas, essentially drying up the aid for the people over there.

They have a pretty much hostile appraoch with everyone. Hostile enough to give lethal blows to them. I'd say it'd make our lives easier without them around.

If someone publically declared that you should be wiped off the map, I'm sure that you'd want to prevent the means by which that could be accomplished.

If only the Arabs had recognized both the Israeli and Palestinian states nearly six decades ago!

[Asim Aquil]

Actions speak louder than words.

[Asim Aquil]

Actions speak louder than words.

Ahmedinejad only recently said something like that Israel's been huffin n puffin for much longer.

[Shek]

Ahmedinejad only recently said something like that Israel's been huffin n puffin for much longer.

And Nasser used Radio Cairo to invite the Israelis for tea and biscuits while simultaneously abstaining from any aggressive actions against his friend and neighbor, Israel?

[Parihaka]

No just don't melt the ones, who aren't shooting.

Well, the west certainly is getting better at creating and delivering lethal loads that target specifics rather than generalities, hence Iraqs almost laughably small casualty rate for a full blown war, when compared to just sixty years ago, so hopefully what you ask for will happen.
Donald Rumsfeld's premature ejaculation trying to take out Sadam a case in point.
No guarantees though, as Snipe & I pointed out time and again a few months ago, there is a point where our womenfolk go postal and start demanding we burn entire populations brains out of their skulls, and we just don't get any peace until we do.

[zraver]

Why are people arguing about the morality of the A-bomb? Imperial Japan was the single most brutal agresor state of all time. Mao's China may just top them in total dead, but Japan blows even the Nazi's and Spanish out of the water. Alot of people seem to foget that Japan used the WMD option first and most often and was actively planning a WMD strike on the USA.

Japan killed tens of millions of Chinese many with plague bombs that continue to cause problems in China today. All told Japanese agression may have killed 35 million Chinese, and people whine about the US bombing ironic isn't it.

Asim, I am guesing your a muslim based on your hatered of Israel. You of course are aware that Israel has never attacked her neighbors without provocation and is legally sovegien over every sqaure inch of land she controls by both treaty and defensive conquest(1). Nor was any Palestinian illegally evicted off thier land under then and still current precedent in regards to hostile populations of agressor states that lost a war(2)

If the arabs would stop attacking there would be peace.

(1) A- Following the end of WW2 Germany and Japan both lost territory. B- Egypt and Jordan both annexed the parts of Palestine not conqured by israel ceeded to the Arab's by the UNSCOP. This annexation was never contested by the inhabitants and both states later legally gave up all claims to Israel, this includes the West Bank and Gaza

(2) 1912-24 Greco-Turkish population exchanges,
End of WW2 de-Germinisation of Prussia, Alsace-Lorraine, and Chezklovakia
Uncontested serb expulsion from Kosovo following thier attmepted genocide of Albanian Muslims

[Parihaka]

Well, that's perfectly valid, in a war we didn't start. But it's more than that: it WAS, on balance, and for EVERYbody, a Good Thing that nukes were used. I swear, chief, I'm not sure I can take ANYbody seriously that can't see that. It really IS that obvious.

Personally I think it's valid even in a war you do start if it is neccessary to win that war.
In the beginning, you pick a side, by chance if you're a sheep, by choice if you're a sheepdog.
After that, it's kill or be killed. Fire-bomb Dresden? Took out the railyards for 10 days, good for me.
Nuke Japanese cities and firebomb Tokyo? Made em surrender didn't it?
Asim seems to equate some sort of woolly morality and liberalism to war, I think even you are a bit romantic about it, like somehow it's meant to be fair, and the good knights will ride to the rescue.
To me the good knights are those who will do whatever it takes to win for MY side. My morality will decide for me who is my side, and as you say, it really IS that obvious.

[Asim Aquil]

Asim, I am guesing your a muslim based on your hatered of Israel. You of course are aware that Israel has never attacked her neighbors without provocation and is legally sovegien over every sqaure inch of land she controls by both treaty and defensive conquest(1). Nor was any Palestinian illegally evicted off thier land under then and still current precedent in regards to hostile populations of agressor states that lost a war(2)

I'm no fan of the Palestinians and much of the middle east myself. But on the issue of the A-bomb just using a slight play of words to point out the double standard.

You guys are all happy and giddy to save yourself and nuke someone else. But when its you who can get nuked, its different?

[zraver]

I'm no fan of the Palestinians and much of the middle east myself. But on the issue of the A-bomb just using a slight play of words to point out the double standard.

You guys are all happy and giddy to save yourself and nuke someone else. But when its you who can get nuked, its different?

WTF are you talking about? The USA agreed to an ABM treaty to allow the USSR to maintain a second strike capability (it worked both ways), pledged itself to nuclear war to defend Europe, Taiwan and Israel, and even Japan the very country we nuked and who was planning to kill millions of Americans with WMD attacks (they had perfected a super plauge in China).Japan also had it's own advanced A-bomb program in Korea that came very close to achievng a bomb (some contested sources say yhtey did in fact explode an A-bob in the Chosin resevoir a couple of days after or jsut befor ethe A-bomb fell on Japan. You might want to do a little digging.

[Asim Aquil]

Back then you guys had to since they had an equal amount of weaponry. Now that they've lagged far behind you guys scrapped it too.

Because only you want to keep a second strike capability.

What if the Middle Easterners don't want to give Israel a retaliatory option. Launch multiple bombs, get done with Israel, none of our countrymen died. Only Israelis, whats so bad about that?

[Asim Aquil]

Back then you guys had to since they had an equal amount of weaponry. Now that they've lagged far behind you guys scrapped it too.

Because only you want to keep a second strike capability.

What if the Middle Easterners don't want to give Israel a retaliatory option. Launch multiple bombs, get done with Israel, none of our countrymen died. Only Israelis, whats so bad about that?

Otherwise there would have been wars after wars... Israelis would come with their allies to fight along. More nations citizens dying... Now THAT would be awful so instead lets just nuke someone

[Ironduke]

They want to remove Iran's nuclear weapons don't they?

They bombed Iraq's nuclear weapons production facilities didn't they?

They do also arm and supply India with crucial high tech weaponry to be used against Pak

They do also blockade funds to the Hamas, essentially drying up the aid for the people over there.

They have a pretty much hostile appraoch with everyone. Hostile enough to give lethal blows to them. I'd say it'd make our lives easier without them around.

The difference between Israel and Iran and Iraq (in the past) was that their stated policy was the destruction of Israel, wiping it off the map. Israel has had no such policy with regards to Iran or Iraq.

As for India, no weapons Israel is providing them with can match in destructiveness than what they already possess -- nuclear weapons.

With regards to Hamas, it's an internationally recognized terrorist organization whose policy is the destruction of Israel. Why should Israel take actions that would strengthen it's enemy's popularity? Hamas is not a humanitarian organization... it's aid has calculated political ends. If Palestinian suffering would further Hamas's goals, they would just as easily take that course to achieve their ends.

As far as "it'd make our lives easier without them around", the complete annihilation and genocide of the Israeli population would bring about the same for the perpetrators.

The reality is that they're there, they're not going anywhere, any efforts to change this is going to bring extreme hardship upon those making an effort to do so. The far easier course it to have a civilized relationship with them.

Israel has shown its willingness to play nice with those that play nice with Israel, Jordan and Egypt come to mind. Israel is not out to make enemies, and they'd rather have peaceful relations with their neighbors provided they are permitted to do so.


Getting back to this hypothetical argument on Japan, Israel, and double standards, the fact remains that millions of people have not perished under an Israeli jackboot, nor are millions more going to die if they aren't dealt with with nuclear weapons, Israel hasn't launched an invasion of the Middle East seeking to rape it of its resources, committed genocide, etc.

It's a false analogy.