What if: Western Allies vs Russia- 1945

[stratadmir]

just because they were crushed once by the nazis doesnt mean that they wont rise up again.

[Prosto ILya]

Umm, the Poles weren't just crushed by the Nazis. Your vaunted USSR abandoned the Warsaw uprising to the Nazis, then moved in and killed the leftovers themselves.

And your precious West did nothing to save them.

My vaunted USSR throw Nazis out of Poland. My vaunted USSR free CCamps prisoners.
Vaunted.

[dalem]

And your precious West did nothing to save them.

My vaunted USSR throw Nazis out of Poland. My vaunted USSR free CCamps prisoners.

Actually we tried to stage an airlift of food and supplies to Warsaw but Stalin refused to let the planes land in Soviet territory so it was halted.

And sure, the Sovs threw the Nazis out of Poland, then enslaved Poland. So they ended up getting the Western half of Poland too after 4 years of bloody war, when they only started by splitting the country with the Nazis and taking the Eastern half. Good work.

Any other historical events you are ignorant of that you wish to opine on, tovarishch?

-dale

[Prosto ILya]

I am not your tovarisch, dalem.

And sure, the Sovs threw the Nazis out of Poland, then enslaved Poland.

Time under USSR influence – is nothing compared to Nazi time of power.

So they ended up getting the Western half of Poland too after 4 years of bloody war, when they only started by splitting the country with the Nazis and taking the Eastern half. Good work.

By dividing Poland in parts, despicable commie bustards saved life’s of hundreds of Jews

Any other historical events you are ignorant of that you wish to opine on

Ignorant? From the West point of view – of course. But your point of view is not the only one.

Stalin was a monster. Nobody argue with that. USSR was a country with dictatorship regime.No argues here. But it is nothing compared to Nazi Germany. And when Soviet solder compared to Nazi – I prefer to be silent. Because if will speak – moderators will ban me – I can use… quite harsh worlds. My grandgrandfather - half jew-half russian - got a bullet in West Ukraine. He never recovered, fighting not for comrade Stalin but for motherland. And now allies of SS in West Ukraine siting in watnth and wealth. Yes, USSR oppressed. Yes. Yes, Baltic Countries war under harsh control. But why those countries ,I wonder, forgot, that Hitler planning total annihilation of their people. Total and absolute annihilation. USSR never made gloves from a skin of a children (“good skin. Softer than usual” written in dairy of one of the nazi officer ). USSR never planning to destroy nations only because they were darker or whiter than Ariec-uber-race.
And yes USSR brought if not freedom, but at least chance to live. USSR in WW2 - is not only comrade Stalin. As USA - not only Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[dalem]

And yes USSR brought if not freedom, but at least chance to live. USSR in WW2 - is not only comrade Stalin. As USA - not only Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I disagree. Anything involving the USSR in WWII was only comrade Stalin. I grant you that he actually starved and killed fewer of his own people directly during that time than before the war, inasmuch as he allowed his generals to run them over German mines and into German machinegun fire, so the Germans killed them instead of Uncle Joe.

Bottom line is that the USSR allied with the Nazis and split up Poland, got attacked, fought back, got back Poland, killed some Poles, then enslaved half of Europe for 50 years.

Eff 'em.

-dale

[jon_j_rambo]

Guys, don't be limited by your own point of view. Respect the position of a One-World-Order.

[FlyingCaddy]

M21,

Those Soviet Siberian divisions were the cream of the crop. Zukhov cut his teeth with them, killing the Imperial Japanese Army's incursion into Siberia before he took his art West against Paulis and Von Manstein. At the end of the war, they smashed the IJA's Kwangtung Army in Manchuria in a matter of days.

While Patton is undoubtly one of the best Western allies' manouver generals, he was on par with Zukhov and Chuikov which meant that all three were nowhere near Kesselring, Von Manstein, and Rommel. What the Allies excel at was artillery and bombardment. Manouver was iffy. I don't think Patton could have did any better than Montgomery did. Montgomery caught the Wehrmacht by surprise in Market-Garden. The Wehrmacht was waiting for Patton.

Kursk and the Battle of the Buldge were used by the Soviets in the 50s and 60s to devise hugging tactics. They remembered that at Kursk, the airforces from both sides refrain from making ground attacks because the battle was so intertwined. In the Battle of the Buldge, the Wehrmacht kept their distance as part of their doctrine to use firepower as the decisive force. This naturally allowed ground attack aircrafts to make life a living hell for them.

FIrst, I am suprised at the lack of appreciation you give to Heinz Guderian, the man was the father of Blitzkrieg, if Hitler did not order his Panzer Group to Kiev after Smolensk, he would be drinking his tea in Moscow. The only reason he never made Field Marshall was Hitler disliked Guderian's frank style and opinions about armored warfare. Another fact of all the units in army group central, only Guderian's men reached thier objectives in Operation Typhoon.

Now Operation Market-Garden without question the idea was suprise, but it wasnt that suprising, the Germans blew most of the bridges the troops needed to secure and the paprdrop did not occur in one mass wave as necessary but in three waves becasue of a lack air transports. In addition, the allies knowingly sent men into a well defended area, I mean there were three SS divisions there, if they didnt get those bridges in tact and the group support was bogged down, it was a meat grinder in the making. I think Patton's worse decision is distinguishable from Market Garden.

[Officer of Engineers]

FIrst, I am suprised at the lack of appreciation you give to Heinz Guderian, the man was the father of Blitzkrieg, if Hitler did not order his Panzer Group to Kiev after Smolensk, he would be drinking his tea in Moscow. The only reason he never made Field Marshall was Hitler disliked Guderian's frank style and opinions about armored warfare. Another fact of all the units in army group central, only Guderian's men reached thier objectives in Operation Typhoon.

Well, if you followed this thread and others in this forum. It all boils back down to Hitler. Without Hitler, the Wehrmacht would have fought a very different war (maybe wouldn't start one). Guderian was the master ... but was not allowed to shine under Hitler.

Now Operation Market-Garden without question the idea was suprise, but it wasnt that suprising, the Germans blew most of the bridges the troops needed to secure and the paprdrop did not occur in one mass wave as necessary but in three waves becasue of a lack air transports. In addition, the allies knowingly sent men into a well defended area, I mean there were three SS divisions there, if they didnt get those bridges in tact and the group support was bogged down, it was a meat grinder in the making. I think Patton's worse decision is distinguishable from Market Garden.

The debate was if Patton had gotten the fuel instead of Montgomery, would he have done better. I think not. The Wehrmacht was watching Patton (and thus was preparing for Patton), not Montgomery.

[jon_j_rambo]

Who are you guys kidding? The Germans were overrated! Attacking sleeping farmers with tanks isn't that tough or spectacular.

[Officer of Engineers]

Have no idea what you said nor do I care.

[Ray]

JJ,

If you have no clue, it is better to can it.

What do you know of war? You are a man of the cloth. Stick to your homilies, even though that also rankles when put across out of context.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Ray --- What am I trying to say? Simple, that the Germans were overrated! Who did they really defeat? Poland, Luxemberg, Amsterdamn, & Paris? Big deal, half those people were Nazis anyways!

Goering's Luftwaffe got destroyed by the RAF! The Royal & US Navy won the battle of the Atlantic. The Germans did well in Russia, but just for a year after Barbarossa.

The Germans built & a bunch of tanks to attack weak countries. Against strong opponents, the Nazis lost!

[lwarmonger]

At the end of the War military experience of USSR armies were unmatched. The Europe will be cleansed in a matter of months. And do not forget about USSR armies in China, which defeat Quantone army. They were ready to march on.

Experience doesn't matter if you don't have gas or ammunition. The Soviet Union would have been incapable of giving it's armor enough fuel to make it very far into US and British occupied Germany, much less France, because the allied strategic forces were second to none, and while the Soviet Union was providing some
of it's own trucks, the United States was providing the vast majority.

I remember. But rebuilding was incredibly fast. After 10 years we already put sputnik on orbit.

So? At 1945, the United States had 50% of the worlds manufacturing capability. The United States alone! It doesn't matter how fast the Soviet Union could have rebuilt it's industry, we were already hyperproductive, and the US would have buried the Soviet Union under a flood of mass produced tanks and aircraft (when the American economy got into full swing, the United States was producing far more aircraft, tanks, and ships than the Soviet Union was... all the while providing every one of its allies with trucks and other necessary materials).

According to whom? At the end of war USSR has more than enough submarines with war trained crews.

There is no question that the United States navy was superior. I don't remember exactly how many fleet carriers the US had at the end of the war, but it was an astonishingly large number. Our submarine crews had far more experience than Russia's (sinking Japan's merchant fleet), and the Soviet Fleet was a coastal defense fleet at best. There is no way in hell that it could have held the combined American and British fleets away from the Soviet Union proper, much less disrupt the Atlantic or Pacific shipping lanes.

[lwarmonger]

The Germans built & a bunch of tanks to attack weak countries. Against strong opponents, the Nazis lost!

The Nazis lost because they were severely outnumbered. Even as late as 1945 the Germans were still exchanging casualties at a rate of 4 or 5 to 1 against the Soviets, and tactically they were better than American soldiers (who tended to have less experience, insufficient doctrine and worse equipment) and the Brits (who tended to have much worse equipment and inferior doctrine). Sheer industrial capacity and weight of numbers, plus the breathing to recover from initial mistakes, allowed the Big Three to stay in the fight, but if the Germans had even close to even numbers there is no doubt that they could have won.

[Prosto ILya]

Bottom line is that the USSR allied with the Nazis and split up Poland, got attacked, fought back, got back Poland, killed some Poles, then enslaved half of Europe for 50 years.

Bottom line is that USSR save Poland nation as a nation. And enslaved nothing (too many talks about slavery – personal experience, maybe). If you imagine USSR and Warsaw Block only by USA-movies and modern stories of it’s ex-members.

I disagree. Anything involving the USSR in WWII was only comrade Stalin.

Disagree, if you wish. For West – yes. For us – USSR involved in WW2 with one reason – to survive.

I grant you that he actually starved and killed fewer of his own people directly during that time than before the war, inasmuch as he allowed his generals to run them over German mines and into German machinegun fire, so the Germans killed them instead of Uncle Joe.

You grant me? Do not tell me about Jugashvily, I know more than enough, and oldest members of my family – on the personal level. Yes, in the first years of war our Solders served as a cannon fodder. Because should we lose this war, our nations would face complete annihilation. Same as Jews, Africans and others.

and the US would have buried the Soviet Union under a flood of mass produced tanks and aircraft

And would control this new tanks and aircrasts? Untrained boys, that never smelled gunpowder?

Our submarine crews had far more experience than Russia's (sinking Japan's merchant fleet)

Far more experience? In the beginning of the war USSR subs were much less advanced (almost full copy of a Germa older subs). Still, they managed to sink Nazi ships and evade sophisticated mines. At the end of the war, many subs were reconstructed and upgraded – and experience of their crews was more than high.